Can Weber get up tonight?

[ECR033]

No offence, but what a load of crap! I wasn’t going to bother with a reply, but it beats doing work, so here goes…

Ferrari were powerless to do anything to fix the situation. They did the right thing and left it in the hands of the FIA. They took a "no issue" stance on the chicane - they neither supported it or objected to it

By taking a “no issue” stance, they guaranteed it’s failure. Without unanimous support from all teams, there’s no way that the FIA would have sanctioned it.

Even if Ferrari supported it, the FIA position was that they could not safely design and install a chicane safely within the timeframe, and that changing the track was a breach of the rules and grossly unfair to the other competitors.

They knew about this problem on Friday afternoon. The chicane situation could have been rectified on Saturday. Yes it would have been unfair to the Bridgestone runners, so common sense says that the Michelin runners would have been heavily penalised or excluded from the results. Not necessarily a good result, but at least we would have had a race.

its not like it was a brand new track they hadn't been to before - the tyre companies had data from previous years to know what kind of loads the tyres would be subject to here. Michelin took a gamble and brought a very agressive, light tyre, hoping for a performance advantage over the Bridgestones - when it turned out to be a disadvantage, they tried to change the playing feild, then took their bat and ball and went home.

True, although I don’t think they tried to change the playing field. They knew that they’d stuffed up big time and that they shouldn’t be allowed to race on principle. The only reason they should have raced is for the good of the sport and the paying fans and sponsors.

The Michelin teams had other options to allow them to run the race - they could have simply run slower in those 2 turns to preserve the tyres, but they weren't prepared to do that unless the Bridgestone teams were slowed as well by the insertion of a chicane.

It’s a motor race isn’t it??? Drivers will always push the boundaries and there’s no way their competitive nature would have allowed them to slow down in turn 12/13. Yes the Bridgestone teams would be slowed as well, but I think you’re missing the point as the Michelin teams would have been more than likely disqualified anyway. The point of the race was to provide a spectacle for the fans and sponsors, not some 6 car farce.

Or they could have changed the LR tyres in their pitstops. There is provision in the rules allowing tyre changes where there is damage to the tyre, and no-one would argue the tyres were not suffering damage. The FIA presented these options to the teams, but they chose not to play if the Bridgestone runners were going to whop their arse...

True, but the tyres were unsafe full stop and the risk to the drivers safety was too high to run on them at all.

The Michelin teams could have raced for points, and it would still have been a very interesting race - perhaps the most interesting of the season! They may have been beaten by all the Bridegstone finishers, but there were still points available. They chose not to.

They chose not to on the grounds of safety. Would you have raced if you knew there was a high risk you could end up in the concrete wall??? Doubt it…

Michelin also chose not to take any measures to fly in other tyres from Europe to give the possibility of another tyre option.

The second tyre option (the tyres they used in Barcelona) weren’t safe either, so that wasn’t a realistic option. Fact of the matter is that this was the first time Michelin had run a one race tyre at Indy and they grossly miscalculated the wear rate. In short, they stuffed up and the only viable solution was to physically force the cars to slow down into turn 12/13.

What should Ferrari do? not race? then what - if there is no race, there's absolutely no show for the fans. But Jordan were going out regardless. No-one's bitching about them! Hell they were even praised, as someone else has pointed out! Stoddart of Minardi made all sorts of noble sentiments about how he didn't want to race... as his cars were lining up on the grid to collect his biggest paycheck of the season... At least Jordan and Ferrari didn't bullshit anyone.

Crap. Big difference between Jordan/Minardi and Ferrari – the minnows supported a chicane so the race could go ahead while the rich boy’s in red saw an opportunity to finally win a race (with huge media/sponsor exposure) and decided not to. As for Jordan and Minardi, they would be out of their minds not to race as nobody should knock a gift horse in the mouth. As for Ferrari, well they didn’t have much to loose either. Surely they would have won the race anyway as a result of the penalties imposed on the Michelin runners.

Facts are that Michelin stuffed up big time and should be punished severely for their mistake. The fans and sponsors however did not deserve to miss out on watching a full grid of cars battle out the GP – again, Michelin’s fault. For the good of the sport and as a sign of goodwill, Ferrari could have supported the chicane that would have pressured the FIA into putting it in place to allow the GP to go ahead. Ferrari simply chose not to and we were left with the biggest F1 farce in recent memory and a lot of unhappy fans and sponsors.

Phew

[Beer Baron]

i do not think the chicane was a viable option though mate. what garauntee was there that the tyre would be safe even with the chicane.

also you said that:"Fact of the matter is that this was the first time Michelin had run a one race tyre at Indy and they grossly miscalculated the wear rate"

unfortunately from what I have read wear rate was not the problem at all. it was a tyre contstruction problem which was so bad it could fail after one lap, or after 10 or maybe 100. if it were are wear rate problem (which we have seen before) then it would have been a simple matter of having pit stops during the race.

[Archie@]

They knew about this problem on Friday afternoon. The chicane situation could have been rectified on Saturday. Yes it would have been unfair to the Bridgestone runners, so common sense says that the Michelin runners would have been heavily penalised or excluded from the results. Not necessarily a good result, but at least we would have had a race.

Ah but isn't it true that Michelin actually ended up bringing in the appropriate compound tyre all the way from France. The Michelin teams could well have used these tyres and suffered a penalty for a tyre change, but still have held a race.

As for Minardi they knew all along that Ferrari would oppose so off course Stoddart wants to look like the good guy out there. He's probably laughing all the way to the bank as it's the first time in how long that he's actually scored points?!?!?!

If i was in Ferrari's position with that much money being spent on a single race, i would say Fu(k the rest of the field too. they fail to turn up to a race prepared, then why should that penalise the teams that have done the right thing. I understand that it suck for everyone involved, especially the fans, but Michelin and the 7 teams brought this on themselves..... end of rant

anyway i think i'll go back to watching JGTC so much more interesting than this boring kart crap....

[scathing]

They chose not to on the grounds of safety. Would you have raced if you knew there was a high risk you could end up in the concrete wall??? Doubt it…

I wouldn't, but that's one reason why I'm not a professional racer. But every time those guys step in to a race car (especially ones that go as quickly as F1), they know there's a good chance they're going to crash. This is what Ralf Schumacher said after his second high speed accident on the Indy circuit:

Ralf had said earlier that he had no fears about returning to the scene of last year's crash.

"If I were afraid of being in a Formula One car I'd stay at home," he said.

However, it also reminds me of this:

Drivers will always push the boundaries and there’s no way their competitive nature would have allowed them to slow down

So which is it? Are they ultra competitive, boundary pushers who not slow down even though they know its dangerous, or are they too scared to race and come to a complete halt if they know its dangerous?

[scathing]

Facts are that Michelin stuffed up big time and should be punished severely for their mistake. The fans and sponsors however did not deserve to miss out on watching a full grid of cars battle out the GP – again, Michelin’s fault. For the good of the sport and as a sign of goodwill, Ferrari could have supported the chicane that would have pressured the FIA into putting it in place to allow the GP to go ahead. Ferrari simply chose not to and we were left with the biggest F1 farce in recent memory and a lot of unhappy fans and sponsors.

You may as well ask everyone to pull over at the Canadian Grand Prix so Jacques Villeneuve can win on his home soil, on a track named after his deceased ex-F1 racing father, for this concept of "good will" and "showmanship for the paying fans".

Good will has no place on a race track. You're either out there to win, or you're not. And, if you're not, you're just a mobile chicane. Maybe that's what Minardi and Jordan should have done. Just slowed down on the last 2 turns so the Michelin shod front runners would have to weave around them at a lower pace.

For good will and to provide a show of overtaking for the fans, etc etc......

Ferrari stuck to the rules. Rules that were designed to handicap them the most. All this "cost saving" shit was put in to stop the team with the biggest budget from bringing masses of spare parts and pretty much rebuilding their cars between sessions.

Ferrari threw up massive objections before their implementation, but you don't see them chucking a hissy fit and refusing to race this year because they have to carry their engines over 2 races, and run on 1 set of tyres.

Since these new rules, designed to **** them over, have finally bent over the rest of the field why should Ferrari do anything but smirk and let the rest of the teams see how it feels when the shoe's on the other foot?

[relicr31act]

Ferrari stuck to the rules. Rules that were designed to handicap them the most. All this "cost saving" shit was put in to stop the team with the biggest budget from bringing masses of spare parts and pretty much rebuilding their cars between sessions.

Since when has Ferrari had the biggest budget? Toyota reportedly spends 1 billion US dollars per year with a team of directly and indirectly 1,000 ppl!!! Anyway the whole point is that these professional drivers know the risks yes but they aren't suicidal!! Nobody could be expected to race on those tyres. What would happen if a car went into the crowd (highly unlikely given the height of the catch fence at Indy admittedly) or if a driver was killed or seriously injured because of a tyre failure? Michelin forked it up no doubt. But they also did the responsible thing with regards to the safety of the drivers. It is all going to get very interesting in the next week as the seven Michelin teams have been charged with bringing the sport into disrepute for not racing!! and Bernie is being sued by Indy for 7.4 million quid!! Everybody knows how much Bernie likes money that is going to hurt!! If the FIA aren't very careful we could have three teams for the rest of the season!!

[Duncan]

I'll guarantee if the drivers had been allowed to race every single one of them would have been driving flat out....except maybe ralph with his flash backs to last year....

[Roy]

At the end of the day there was several options that could have been adopted that would hav meant that the fans got a race, the team's sponsors got their return, and the Michelin teams got penalised as to not allow them to navigate the rules.

What is pathetic is that all this talk abotu chicans, tyres from France etc. It was categorically rejected. The circuit owners.operators were nto even consulted about the viability of the chicane. Slow them down to 60km/h for a blast bacj up through the gears, hell even let them run on the ex-France tyres, then on the 3rd last lap, make all Michelin cars stop for a 120 second stop - go penalty, or perhaps exclude them from resulysaltogether, though if McLaren can give away +120 second headstart to Minardi/Jordan then they deserve to factor in the points

Too easy, put me in charge of the category, and i would only want US$3,000,000 a year to manage the series:)

[ECR033]

unfortunately from what I have read wear rate was not the problem at all. it was a tyre contstruction problem which was so bad it could fail after one lap, or after 10 or maybe 100

My stuff up, you're exactly right mate - must have been having a blonde moment

You may as well ask everyone to pull over at the Canadian Grand Prix so Jacques Villeneuve can win on his home soil, on a track named after his deceased ex-F1 racing father, for this concept of "good will" and "showmanship for the paying fans".

Good will has no place on a race track. You're either out there to win, or you're not. And, if you're not, you're just a mobile chicane. Maybe that's what Minardi and Jordan should have done. Just slowed down on the last 2 turns so the Michelin shod front runners would have to weave around them at a lower pace

LOL I think you've misunderstood me mate. You're right, goodwill has no place on the race track itself. My point was that F1 and every team in it had more to loose as a collective whole, then the 3 teams who did race had to gain. Therefore they should have attempted to somehow work together to find a solution. I'm not sure what the right solution would have been or if there was a solution at all to be honest. It just appears that one team in particular made no effort at all to help find that solution. I'm not saying any of this is their fault, all I'm saying is that F1 shot itself in the foot big time in the market it could least afford to do so and Ferrari did absolutely nothing to try and stop it from happening.

Ferrari stuck to the rules. Rules that were designed to handicap them the most. All this "cost saving" shit was put in to stop the team with the biggest budget from bringing masses of spare parts and pretty much rebuilding their cars between sessions

There's an interesting article on team budgets in the May issue (i think) of F1 racing. Also, I think if you're going to refer to budget size, then it's also important to consider revenue and the share of the pie (so to speak) that each team gets from F1 TV revenue. There'll never be such a thing as a level playing field in F1 ;)

It's no wonder why the other manufacturers of teams want to start up GPWC...IF GPWC ever gets off the ground, I wonder if Ferrari will still race on it's own in a 2 car field? At least, it'll make the 6 car US GP look exciting

[ECR033]

This is a good thread by the way

The arguments in this thread are almost indiactive of the differing opinions you'd find in any F1 pitlane or grandstand. I guess it's part of why the sport is so interesting to follow

[Roy]

The FIA have charged the team chiefs with:

- failing to ensure they had a supply of suitable tyres

- wrongfully refusing to allow their cars to start the race and/or

- wrongfully refusing to allow their cars to race subject to a speed restriction in one corner which was safe for suich tyres as they had and/or

- combined with other teams to make a demonstration damaging to the image of Formula One by pulling into the pits immediately before the start of the race.

LOL..this is such a mess:(

Put the issue to bed. Michelin stuffed up, and the teams didnt do such a flash job either. But if the FIA were that concerned...they are the FIA, they had the power to set matters right:(

[scathing]

My point was that F1 and every team in it had more to loose as a collective whole, then the 3 teams who did race had to gain.  Therefore they should have attempted to somehow work together to find a solution.

Maybe its just my inner despot talking, but the people who run the series should have just laid down the law. Forget this consensus shit. And if the majority of competitors would have been ****ed, then make a decision that would have gotten them on the grid.

The way I see it, you can't expect one racing team to do something that harms them and benefits other teams. They should do "good of the sport" stuff as long as its equal to everyone, but you can't ask a competitor to permit something that puts them at a disadvantage compared to everyone else.

So, like little kids (and after the "we're not racing", "We're not compromising" dummy spit, F1 teams come across as spoilt little kids) if asking them to do something doesn't work, you tell them.

[Roy]

So out of interest, wgat should have the michelin teams done?

[hrd-hr30]

this talk about Ferrari's "no issue' stance on the chicane is all irrelevant. Irrespective of the outcome of the team vote, the FIA make and implement the rules, and their position is clear - read the press release on the previous page.

what more could the FIA have done?

the FIA don't have any tyres to give them

and it was not feasible to design and install a chicane in accordance with appropriate safety procedures at such short notice, never mind it being directly against the rules and grossly unfair to teams that did have suitable equipment for the race. As the FIA pointed out;

"A chicane would have forced all cars, including those with tyres optimised for high-speed, to run on a circuit whose characteristics had changed fundamentally – from ultra-high speed (because of turn 13) to very slow and twisting. It would also have involved changing the circuit without following any of the modern safety procedures, possibly with implications for the cars and their brakes. It is not difficult to imagine the reaction of an American court had there been an accident (whatever its cause) with the FIA having to admit it had failed to follow its own rules and safety procedures."

Michelin stated their tyres would be safe if speed through turn 13 was reduced. FIA provided options for Michelin teams, offering to police a speed limit for Michelin shod cars in turn 13 to this safe speed stipulated by Michelin, but they refused. FIA also provided the option under the rules for Michelin teams to repeatedly change LR tyres during the race, but they refused. The Michelin teams wanted the Bridgestone runners slowed to the same amount by the inclusion of a chicane otherwise they simply would not race. All this talk from the Michelin teams about being willing to accept penalties to race is just bullshit.

Those are the facts of the matter, the rest of it is just smoke and mirrors from the Michelin teams trying (quite successfully, it must be said) to lay the blame elsewhere, wether it be Ferrari or the FIA - anywhere but themselves and Michelin. It all reeks a bit of bigger political issues underlying this decision not to race, and I think it will be used as justification/propaganda for the breakaway series.

[Beer Baron]

OMG someone actually read my post!!

[Roy]

So they are able to come up with a means of policing (Speed traps?) the corner in 12-24 hours, and i suppose hand out stop goes...but they didnt even talk to the circuit owners/operators and question how easy it would be to put in a chicane??? They didnt even approach the circuit operators, and reading some of their thoughts it wouldnt have been an issue.

Admitedly the proposals put forward by Miechelin and the teams had them back on a level playing field with the Bridgeston teams which would not have been fair. But there are so many obvious solutions to this. Hell what is the penalty for using rubber not designated so severe?

They had rubber there which would have been ok for the race. Start the cars from the pits based on qualifying times (michelin only), make them carry out a stop-go and let the race be an actual race. The Bridgestone guys would have had a head start form the start, with the stop go carried out within a certain lap window...hell this should have been a no brainer:(

Im not saying FIA are wrong, they are all stupid and to blame, but the FIA had the power to let ppl go racing...but the d1ck swinging competition left the sponsors and fans up the creek

[benm]

Here are some Xvids I made...

* Formation lap + Race start - (4min/26mb)

* MS vs RB close call - (1min/7mb)

* Post-race Interviews - (5min/23mb)

[inissane]

yes to summarise me reckons:

michelin made an engineering mistake (with the tyre wall strength not the wear rate is my understanding)

michelin teams kicked up a fuss and started a childish power struggle that intentionally stirred emotions of past ass kicking by Ferrari who in this case do just happen to run Bridgestone tyres which were fine

FIA didnt act quickly enough or decisively enough to dissipate a damaging situation

[N1SM032]

Ferrari cant be blamed for this one, all fingers should be pointed at the french tyre company for bringing a bad tyre, this does mean the end of F1 in the US they wont recover from this one I dont think which is sad cause its a huge market and its really what F1 needed buts bring on the GPWC

[Kel]

Is it only me who reckons michelin would be talking about their superiority if this tyre had pulled it off and won the race??

All race teams walk the line- some times you pull it off and sometimes it ends like the Canadian GP.