Can Weber get up tonight?

[Amaru]

Just on the point regarding using Indianapolis as the track for the US GP, I read somewhere that due to the already declining crowds there and the fact that the F1 GP is sandwiched between the Indy 500 and the Brickyard 300, there is serious talk of moving the GP to the Long Beach Street circuit. Sounds like a good idea considering that they'd be lucky to get a hundred people at Indianapolis next year after this years debacle.

Its also been said Bernie Ecclestone and his minions make an absolute killing for their own pockets from running at Indianapolis. The track is highly unsuited to F1 cars, and this has been mentioned by drivers on multiple times.

Id love to see F1 at Laguna Seca, with the cars winding their way down the corkscrew... thatd be awesome (plus its a wide track around alot of the corners on the first half of the track, plenty of overtaking opportunities)

[inissane]

there should now be a massive look at the constitution of F1 - what is the sport/business? about

what do people want to see????

If you ask me one only must remember the racing/environment in the 80s n early 90s - who do we remember Prost, Senna, Mansell, Burger - all fantastic F1 drivers, now they were racers. Problem is now the sport/teams/administration/business thinks its way bigger than the champions in the ****pit. Now the racing is more bout teams and brand names and technology. Its turned into a technology race just look at the focus Michelin, Ferrari, Mclaren, Bridgestone rararara...

Now the only ones who are going to win are full of $$ technology and cold minded ruthlessness.

I think you could point the finger all day but F1 is eating itself - is it a motorsport in which humans go toe to toe at 300km/hr or an enormous technology circus where its a pure engineering/marketing race and all you do is look for loop holes to try and win.

Dont get me wrong im an engineer but there comes a point in sport which is what we are talking about, now the rules must be updated to demand more of the driver (get rid of launch control, traction control, further reduce downforce, go back to the clutches and gear shifter too) and also marginally lower the speed and make it about drivers and overtaking again.

[Fly_With_Sky]

ridiculous is all i can say about this race...michelin and the FIA should reimburse all the spectators that came and saw that rubbish...

you would think that michelin would know that on a track where you are going 300kn/h plus around a bend, with this putting enormous strain on the tyres that they would bring a tyre to suit the circuit. But then again if they knew they had a problem since Ralf crashed on friday, then one would think that all involved parties (michelin, FIA, F! teams) should be able to sort it out in 2 days...

[Shrub32]

why should the Michelin teams be punished its not their fault their supplier made a mistake i think missing out on a race weekend and championship points is enough punishment. Sure has given Ferrari a glimmer of false hope, still will probably be the only win of the season for them.

this whole fiasco could of been handled better if it werent for stubborn people in high places. why couldnt they let michelin bring over new tyres their teams all they had to do was allow the bridgestone runners a choice of new tyres for the race aswell, make an exception in the ruling for one race FFS.

I cant wait for the break away series, all that will be left in F1 will be Ferrari.... guess it will be renamed Formula Ferrari aye!

[Duncan]

Well personally I say bad luck to the michellin teams, they have been getting the advantage of much better tyres all year but now they have pushed it too far.

On the other hand, no way should the organisers or the FIA have allowed a change to the track just because it didn't suit some teams. They all knew what they were coming to it is up to them to make sure they are safe.

Not a great day for F1....only 20 cars in the worlds premier motor series, and then only 6 start a race? they have really hurt their reputation in the US, particularly in the same month that 400,000 people turned up to the same track to watch people turn left all day

[Silver-Arrowz]

Pathetic! Stayed up all night for nothing. As much as I hate the USGP, gotta admit that the more US sponsored companies back F1 teams, more better for the sport. And this just blew every chance of that to bits. Will there be another USGP? Doubt it. May as well setup a race in the south pole.

[ZigenGT]

Bloody disgraceful. Max Mosley & the FIA should be on the chopping board. I think this signifies the start of the ending of F1, not only the USGP. Events like these give the Manufacturers more reason to kick start the GPWC.

I also can't believe Ferrari & Schumacher would stoop so low as to start the race and claim the win. Utterly disgraceful.

[Mecha]

Its time to break off! Enough of this back room political shit.

Ferrari remind me of the typical techers pet. When they do stuff like this it makes me hate them even more!

[Shell]

i thought it was the funniest thing i've seen in a long time!!

MS & Rubins wouldnt even look at each other and then walked off the podium without spraying their champers.... that other Jordan driver was up there grinning and spraying it all by himself

first time i've ever seen spectator interviews during the race... and the crowd throwing stuff at the cars..

it was all so ridiculous it was funny

[relicr31act]

A friend of mine who is heavily involved in the motor industry made an interesting point. Ferrari sell how many cars a year? We thought about 5-7,000 per year. How many do Toyota make? At last count including Daihatsu and Lexus worldwide last year Toyota made 7 million cars!!! Along with Honda 3.5million, BMW 2.0 million, Daimler Chrysler 4.5 million, Renault plenty,? How long do you think these companies are going to be ponsed around by Ferrari and the FIA? Not much longer I would think. I think this (Indy debacle) is the beginning of the end for Formula 1 as we know it. If these forementioned companies were getting pissed off with Ecclestone/Mosley/ FIA before this weekend you can imagine what will be on the agenda of a lot of board meetings in the coming months. If they withdraw en masse from the CHAMPIONSHIP what happens then? I think this is inevitable. It reminds me a lot of the birth of World series cricket. The traditionalists said it would never happen. In my experience never is a very long time.

[Beer Baron]

well, i steered clear of this thread yesterday as I didn't watch the race until last night. I managed to avoid all news of F1 until I watched.

well, what a discgrace.

One thing I've learnt though is that everyone loves to point the finger at Ferrari. They didn't do anything wrong. they chose a tyre company that in this case bought a good tyre for them to race on. the other teams were let down badly by michelein. let me pose this question. say the position was reversed and a minardi and a jordan had blowouts in practice and Bridgestone advised their teams not to race. no way would people try and accomodate ferrari and Jordan and minardi. they would say tough sh1t. this is the tyre you've chosen. Everyone loves to hate ferrari. even Martin Brundle, as they were about to take to the podium he was sticking the boot into ferrari says something like: "....should be ashamed, except jordan and monteiro who did what they had to do" how is ferrari in a different position? they need points as much as any team. why should they be penalised because michelein like to sail close to the breeze?

another thing that i found interesting was if there was a problem with the durability why didn't they look at haveing tyre stops??? did they not have enough tyres there? I would think considering most teams run 3 cars in practice but only two in the race there would be enough sets to have a 1 or 2 tyre stops during the race. surely a tyre that they initialy thought would last all of qualifying and a whole race would be much more durable if required only to do half that time or less? or were their tyres THAT bad???

I also don't think the track should have been changed. that is not a viable idea to change a circuits layout on the day of the race.

what an absolute travesty for the people who paid the exorbitant rates Bernie charges for F1 tickets.

[ECR033]

One thing I've learnt though is that everyone loves to point the finger at Ferrari. They didn't do anything wrong

In essence, that is 100% true. But when you look at the bigger picture and the damage that this debacle has done to F1 (paticularly in the US), did they do the right thing by choosing not to agree to the installation of a chicane that would have allowed the race to go ahead? Is it right to deny fans who've paid up their hard earned money to come watch a race simply because it's not your problem, even though you could possibly do something to rectify the situation? Tough questions...

It's quite an ironic situation actually...

While reading through an F1 website last night, I came across an article that refreshed my memory about a similar incident in the recent past. If anyone remembers the 2003 Brazilian GP at Interlagos where Fisichella unbelievably won in his Jordan in the monsoon rain, you might remember that the start of the race was delayed for a good 15 minutes. Why? It was because Bridgestone (and Ferrari), fully aware of the impending rain, decided to designate their very competitive intermediate tyre as their wet weather tyre just prior to the race, whereas the Michelin teams rightly decided to use full wets (less competive) as their's. The race was delayed for 15 minutes while the pouring rain passed, obviously with safety in mind as it was deemed unsafe for the Bridgestone teams to run on their intermediates and the rules dictated that they weren't allowed to switch to a full wet despite the fact that the Michelin teams were able to run in those conditions. Nobody complained as the choice was made with safety in mind, no penalty was imposed on the Bridgestone runners and ironically a Bridgestone runner won the race.

I think there's are quite a few similarities here between what happened in Brazil and what happened on Sunday, but obviously it's hard to find any consistency in the rules (unless you drive an all red car that is ).

Sure the majority of the blame for this debacle lays squarely on Michelin (and they should be very heavily penalised), but you'd think that some sort of solution could have been found. For Ferrari to simply state that it wasn't their problem (which essentially it wasn't), but fail to do anything to help rectify the situation when they could of for the greater good of the sport, just shows the arrogance of the team and it's complete disregard for the fans and sponsors of F1.

[Beer Baron]

yeah, they should have tried to find a solution with the other teams. as for them blocking the chicane installation I don't know for sure that they did. I heard various reports, some saying that they didn't raise any objection (didn't support it either) but left it to the FIA to rule on. others say they objected. who knows. I personally think the chicane idea was doomed from the start. it's dangerous too. you can't alter the track like that the morning of the race. yes, ferrari should have done more to help resolve this situation, but I think there are many other people in F1 who let the sport down. ferrari were not a key player in this episode.

[ECR033]

I'm pretty sure Ferrari didn't block the chicane, they just didn't support it and without the unanimous support of all 10 teams, it was never going to happen. The FIA made sure of that.

I also agree that it's ridiculous and dangerous (to some degree) to change a track on the morning of a GP. In this instance though, it may have been the lesser of 2 evils considering a 6 car GP is bordering on lunacy and the teams would have had a morning practise/familiarisation session if the chicane was in place.

Don't get me wrong, Ferrari are definately not to blame for the situation. The blame lays squarely on Michelin and they should hang their heads in shame for the damage that this episode has caused. I just think it's very wrong that Ferrari did absolutely nothing to rectify the situation, especially considering the other Bridgestone teams (and minnows of the sport) were able to put self interest aside in the best interests of F1 itself.

[rsx84]

looks like i missed all the fun, from what i've read so far, i can work out that Michelin tyres were not safe to run with the speeds clocked for this round, potential driver danger....

there must be guidelines that the trye manufactures have to follow for F1 seasons? which would have to allow for this GP (higher ave speed). Sounds like Michelin may have had problems producing a trye that would be compeditive at all events if they took into account this round.

i think it should be Michelin that is penalized big time for this one as they would have known that there would be problems with the tyre way before the GP, they have miss lead the teams that are using there tyres are now the public.

i don't think the track should have been changed to make it more of a race, in the big picture bridgestone have followed the rules and sould be able to take the most points away they can from a GP.

the rest of the season is going to be interesting for all teams.

if i was the Bridgestone F1 GM i'd be pushing for a control tyre (bridgestone) next year, even the rest of this season perhaps.

now this all said, if i am way off the mark please disregard this post and i will hold my head low in public for the next week...

[Beer Baron]

was also funny to see the michelin ads on TV during the coverage.

[Kor'axis]

I just watched it last night on DVD! anyway, i still don't understand why the couldn't change tyres in the middle of teh race like they used to. I mean it is in the rules that ur allowed to change tyres if the tyres fail or become dangerous to run on (or something like that)

I would've pissed myself if MS hit Rubens. Would've been ironci for that to happen to Ferrari. and as somebody else said they need to make more overtaking in the race, i don't know how but overtaking in the pits is a bit dubious, the driver hasn't actually done anything if his pity crew stuffs up by 1sec which then lead to him coming out of the pits behind his opponent. There really hasn't been that much overtaking in recent races, not including back markers of course.

[ECR033]

was also funny to see the michelin ads on TV during the coverage.

I was thinking the exact same thing...

Same thing happened with the Honda ads during the GP's that BAR were excluded from

[Beer Baron]

here is an extract taken from an article on www.f1.com it is part of a statement made by the FIA which I think sums up things pretty well:

"Formula One is a sporting contest. It must operate to clear rules. These cannot be negotiated each time a competitor brings the wrong equipment to a race.

"At Indianapolis we were told by Michelin that their tyres would be unsafe unless their cars were slowed in the main corner. We understood and among other suggestions offered to help them by monitoring speeds and penalising any excess. However, the Michelin teams refused to agree unless the Bridgestone runners were slowed by the same amount. They suggested a chicane.

"The Michelin teams seemed unable to understand that this would have been grossly unfair as well as contrary to the rules. The Bridgestone teams had suitable tyres. They did not need to slow down. The Michelin teams’ lack of speed through turn 13 would have been a direct result of inferior equipment, as often happens in Formula One. It must also be remembered that the FIA wrote to all of the teams and both tyre manufacturers on June 1, 2005, to emphasise that "tyres should be built to be reliable under all circumstances".

"A chicane would have forced all cars, including those with tyres optimised for high-speed, to run on a circuit whose characteristics had changed fundamentally – from ultra-high speed (because of turn 13) to very slow and twisting. It would also have involved changing the circuit without following any of the modern safety procedures, possibly with implications for the cars and their brakes. It is not difficult to imagine the reaction of an American court had there been an accident (whatever its cause) with the FIA having to admit it had failed to follow its own rules and safety procedures.

"The reason for this debacle is clear. Each team is allowed to bring two types of tyre: one an on-the-limit potential race winner, the other a back-up which, although slower, is absolutely reliable. Apparently, none of the Michelin teams brought a back-up to Indianapolis. They subsequently announced they were flying in new tyres from France but then claimed that these too were unsafe.

"What about the American fans? What about Formula One fans world-wide? Rather than boycott the race the Michelin teams should have agreed to run at reduced speed in turn 13. The rules would have been kept, they would have earned Championship points and the fans would have had a race. As it is, by refusing to run unless the FIA broke the rules and handicapped the Bridgestone runners, they have damaged themselves and the sport."

[hrd-hr30]

Ferrari were powerless to do anything to fix the situation. They did the right thing and left it in the hands of the FIA. They took a "no issue" stance on the chicane - they neither supported it or objected to it. Even if Ferrari supported it, the FIA position was that they could not safely design and install a chicane safely within the timeframe, and that changing the track was a breach of the rules and grossly unfair to the other competitors. They had a point too - its not like it was a brand new track they hadn't been to before - the tyre companies had data from previous years to know what kind of loads the tyres would be subject to here. Michelin took a gamble and brought a very agressive, light tyre, hoping for a performance advantage over the Bridgestones - when it turned out to be a disadvantage, they tried to change the playing feild, then took their bat and ball and went home.

The Michelin teams had other options to allow them to run the race - they could have simply run slower in those 2 turns to preserve the tyres, but they weren't prepared to do that unless the Bridgestone teams were slowed as well by the insertion of a chicane. Or they could have changed the LR tyres in their pitstops. There is provision in the rules allowing tyre changes where there is damage to the tyre, and no-one would argue the tyres were not suffering damage. The FIA presented these options to the teams, but they chose not to play if the Bridgestone runners were going to whop their arse... You can't tell me that the data the Michelin tyre technicians gathered wouldn't have told them how many laps it took for this damage to happen, or what speed would have been safe to take turn 13. The Michelin teams could have raced for points, and it would still have been a very interesting race - perhaps the most interesting of the season! They may have been beaten by all the Bridegstone finishers, but there were still points available. They chose not to.

Michelin also chose not to take any measures to fly in other tyres from Europe to give the possibility of another tyre option.

What should Ferrari do? not race? then what - if there is no race, there's absolutely no show for the fans. But Jordan were going out regardless. No-one's bitching about them! Hell they were even praised, as someone else has pointed out! Stoddart of Minardi made all sorts of noble sentiments about how he didn't want to race... as his cars were lining up on the grid to collect his biggest paycheck of the season... At least Jordan and Ferrari didn't bullshit anyone.