Dyno Tune

[Kor'axis]

Are there benefits to getting your car tuned on a dyno if is an NA. I read that the turbo boys get heaps of power just by getting a run and tune. HOw much could you get out of an NA?

[SKY031]

If you're still running the factory ecu, there is no point to a dyno tune.

The ecu constantly tunes itself.

[Cubes]

The only benifit is you may be able to tweak the ignition timing and possibly fiddle with the fuel pressure to lean it out a little.

[meggala]

my r32 n/a went form 95 rwkw to 105 rwkw with a tune on the dyno it all came from timing we did get it up to 107 but it pinged a bit so wound it back.

meggala

[Kor'axis]

i've heard the term around a bit. WHat's pinging. never heard it. What does it mean for the engine?

[SKY031]

Pinging=detonation

It's caused when the timing (fuel/air) is too far advanced...it creates an un-even burn in the cylinder, and it can cause pitting on the surface of the pistons.

If you want to advance the timing, make sure you use PULP to get the most out of it.

There's no need to put the car on a dyno to advance the timing, go buy a timing light and do it yourself.... check what it's set at, advance it a few degrees, go for a drive.. if it doesn't ping, advance it a bit more...

...but as megs said, if it starts to ping, back it off.

[SKY031]

hmmm and add to that, that pinging can also be caused by spark plugs which are in the wrong heat range.

[rob82]

If you're still running the factory ecu, there is no point to a dyno tune.

The ecu constantly tunes itself.

Your are so far off SKY031. The only time a car tunes itselfis in closed loop mode. When you reach certain parameters MAP/RPM you venture into a place called Open Loop this is where most hoons drive.

[Cubes]

There is a point to a dyno tune even with a stock car.

Tweak the ign. timing and check out the fuel afr's.

[boston]

to rob82 you are 50% correct in your statement..

the car does not tune the afr in open loop but it does muck around with the timing a little..

ie. if the car is detonating it will pull timing a little..

thats why the cars go that little bit harder after you have had the battery disconected for a bit to clear all of the long term trims..

also it would be fair to say that if you were getting the car dyno tuned you have a MAF modifier on the car.. all skylines run very ritch up high in the rpm and a bit can be gained by leaning it off..

just my $0.02

[rob82]

to rob82 you are 50% correct in your statement..

the car does not tune the afr in open loop but it does muck around with the timing a little..

ie. if the car is detonating it will pull timing a little..

thats why the cars go that little bit harder after you have had the battery disconected for a bit to clear all of the long term trims..

also it would be fair to say that if you were getting the car dyno tuned you have a MAF modifier on the car.. all skylines run very ritch up high in the rpm and a bit can be gained by leaning it off..

Boston if you've ever seen the primary ignigtion map (hi or low octane) you would know that the knock sensor will only pull timing out of the low rpm high Load part of the map. Nissan have obviously not done proper reaserch into constant knock sensor operatioin throughout the rev range. This is why in my opinion all nissans are rich as in standard form. Thats why nissans make great power NA or Turbo. There is so much fuel to take out and lots of timing to put in.

[Cubes]

I'm not so sure it only pulls out timing from the low rpm high load parts of the map.

With the stock r32 ecu it was pulling timing out (10degree's) from as high as 4500rpm. I am 99% sure the knock sensor stops pulling timing out over 5000rpm as that is where all the timing was thrown back in and it would ping once again.

This was monitored via consult.

[rob82]

I'm not so sure it only pulls out timing from the low rpm high load parts of the map.

 

With the stock r32 ecu it was pulling timing out (10degree's) from as high as 4500rpm. I am 99% sure the knock sensor stops pulling timing out over 5000rpm as that is where all the timing was thrown back in and it would ping once again.

This was monitored via consult.

The nissan consult cant tell you how much knock retard the ECU is pulling out or at least ours cant. Where you just watching the ignition timing. I know within the map that a value greater than 80 HEX enables the knock sensor to function and pull timing out, if you look at the map you will see. Not sure what RPM it stops working but i'm pretty sure its well before 4500 say 2500 rpm.

[Kor'axis]

So does this all mean that you can or can't tune an NA with no ecu?

[superspit]

Are there benefits to getting your car tuned on a dyno if is an NA. I read that the turbo boys get heaps of power just by getting a run and tune. HOw much could you get out of an NA?

sorry if I sound a little uppety here Kor, but.....

..................if nothing else, regardless of a frickin' ECU upgrade or not or this or that or whatever......a dyno READ-OUT can give you the state of your car's power! (therefore health??)........................

by ......USING THE METHOD OF COMPARISON!! (between your car prior to 'fiddling' and post your 'fiddling' and to other cars (regardless of type!) of similar configuration. All this Just by looking at the graph they supply you.

and......how else can you get the car to phenominal speeds and under full load and have a tech/mechanic with his head still under the bonnet?

Dyno = a reporting tool! ...nothing else. Tuning is an entirely different entity.

The process just sort of happens at the same time.

It is the best way to diagnose and see if there are positive or negative responses to what the tech is trying to do for the car.

So yes!! Massive happy happy joy joys can be achieved by tuning a car via the dyno 'method'........just the pricing stinks to the standard car driver.

ahh.. that feels better.....have a great week K'!!

ps...just got my 33 (dyno tested) by MK Auto in Moorabbin....173.4rkw, with my crummy airinx pod filter.......185 with the new K&N!!!!!! No tuning required!!!

[Cubes]

The nissan consult cant tell you how much knock retard the ECU is pulling out or at least ours cant. Where you just watching the ignition timing. I know within the map that a value greater than 80 HEX enables the knock sensor to function and pull timing out, if you look at the map you will see. Not sure what RPM it stops working but i'm pretty sure its well before 4500 say 2500 rpm.

CAS Ignition timing was 5degree's.

133rwkw

The stock rb20det turbo's wastegate was wired all the way open.

Boost begins around 4000rpm the consult stated 28degree's ignition timing, the dip occured and the usual slight puff of smoke (detonation), looking down at the consult you can see the ignition timing drop by 10degree's and fuel richen up.

Connecting the wastegate so it made boost early had massive flat spots everywhere.

Point being the stock ecu definitely does pull timing at mid/higher rpm.

I've heard of this occuring often. Possibly reinforcing that the ecu does indeed have influence of the ign. timing at the higher rpms.

http://www.skylinesaustralia.com/forums/sh...+sensor+5000rpm

[rob82]

Good point however if the dyno sheet you showed me was in 4th gear then at about 74km/hr (where the dip occurs) the rb20det would be doing about 2500-3000rpm?? It would have seen quite a substantial knock and pulled timing out. The extent at which returns from a knock event is determined by the decay factor thats why it dosen't start making power again till 86km/hr ie. it takes quite a substantial time to recovery from a knock event and the rate of acceleration of the engine is much to fast.

[Cubes]

It was an RB30DET running the stock RB20DET turbo, the turbo had its wastegate wired all the way open to prevent boost being made, even though it was wired open it still managed to make boost over 4000rpm, which is where power started to dip and carry on badly.

With the correct cas timing of 15degree's & the wastegate hooked up the dyno run looked like a roller coaster all the way from idle.

The rb30det with the rb20det turbo makes all of its boost on the dyno by 1700rpm IF the motor is loaded up from 1100rpm.

Discussion is good. From what I experienced with my RB20DET ecu was that it did indeed pull timing and dip up to 4500rpm. Over 4500rpm it didn't appear to pull timing as I could see it was detonating yet the ecu wasn't pulling timing.

The dyno run I attached was the final cleanest dyno run, from memory it was actually dipping at 3500rpm. It was only 1 dip unlike the other runs that dipped from basically idle right up until ~4500rpm prior to pulling cas timing back to 5degree's.

[rob82]

Had another look at my GTR timing map, 4000 is the standard limit for the knock sensor to operate. So if it had a large knock at say 3800 it may not recover fully, as in pulling out 0 degree's timing until say 4500. Still hacking the ECU for the knock recovery rate (if there is one). I know there is a max knock limit. I might be thinking that the MEC-R(**** forgot number 215-maybe) is actually smarter than what it actually is, it is over 15 years old after all. Where do you work cubes?

[WazR32GTSt]

So does this all mean that you can or can't tune an NA with no ecu?

hey davor, hows things mate?

this thread is all over the shop whith things i don't understand (and haven't really read), but back to dynoing...

when i did this with mine, they firstly put the car on the dyno and warmed up the tyres.

then the tuner went through the gears for a few mins to check the condition of the gearbox.

then he gave it a base power run.

then he jumped out and played around with the timing

then he gave it another power run

then he played with boost a little (i know you can't do this with your car)

all up with interruptions my car was on the dyno for about 2.5hours and i paid $110 for an hours worth of dyno time

so back to your question...

can they 'tune' the car?

to me, 'tune' means change the ignition maps or AFRs, and no they cannot do this unless you have some sort of aftermarket ECU or interceptor device

but you can get them to tweak the timing a bit, assess the health of your engine and gearbox, and give you a nice printout of your power! its a great way to tell if your car is in good condition or on its last legs...

if you really want a bit of a tune you can get an SAFC (do a search if you don't know what it is) and they could play around with AFRs a bit

good luck!

Warren.