turbos turbos turbos.....

[GTST-25]

Hey guys i was wondering if you could please give me your views and a little help please

i have a 93 R33, intercooled, stinger ECU, 3' exhaust.. 180rwkw auto

all it needs is a new turbo ! i have also been looking at some headers and a "ballbearing turbo" maybe also a lightened flywheel ??

please can someone tell me if i am on the right track and is work putting on ?

i dont really want to do injectors etc .. but just more midrange, power and more responsive ??

Thankyou all for your time and patience GTST-25

[Sydneykid]

Hey guys  i was wondering if you could please give me your views and a little help please

i have a 93 R33, intercooled, stinger ECU, 3' exhaust..  180rwkw auto  

all it needs is a new turbo ! i have also been looking at some headers and a "ballbearing turbo" maybe also a lightened flywheel ??

please can someone tell me if i am on the right track and is work putting on ?

i dont really want to do injectors etc .. but just more midrange, power and more responsive ??  

Thankyou all  for your time and patience GTST-25

The standard injectors will run out of flow at around 205 rwkw in an auto. I would suggest a GCG ball bearing hi flow of your standard turbo would be best for your purposes. The alternative (if you MUST have a brand name) would be an HKS 2530. Do a search if you want more info.

[discopotato03]

Sorry Dale , been away with work . I don't really know what a drag turbo is as its not in my sphere of interest . If your using production gearing you need a power curve to suit its spacing and speed range (final drive) . A power curve that starts half way through the engines speed range and hits like locomotive is useless with wide (std) gearing . To me good turbo power starts with modest boost that can be run to the redline as often as desired without hurting anything . It should wake up about a third of the way through the usable rev range and be progressive (controllable) as it climbs onto boost . I think Roy mentioned the power out of corners thing as being more important than the guided missile down the straights idea .

As I mentioned before I prefer the method of least possible back pressure and most turbine torque coupled to a compressor of just a little above the required flow capacity . What this gives is a rotating assembly that gets spun pretty fast at times but not outside its design criteria . This is why all the R/D went into Garretts GTBB turbochargers , low innertia wheels spun faster than the bush bearing designs to create high efficient airflow . Compared to T4's the GTBB turbines appear small and open bladed but generally pass more gass with less restriction at higher speeds . The rolling element ball bearings are there because bush bearings cannot reliably survive the shaft speed and thrust loadings , and the oil shear with the high surface area of bush bearings creates unnecessary drag .

The GT3071R has it all , the GT30 turbine with its wide range of turbine housing ARR's and a propper high RPM capable GT compressor wheel that will put good transient response and oomph into the mid range . I doubt I'll ever own an RB25DET but the GT3071R would be my choise . I think the rod stroke ratio and the weight of an R33+RB25 Skyline require a sensibly sized turbo to make it a nice package for road and the odd track day .

For the record I don't think HKS market the GT3071R but it is in the current Garrett catalogue PDF .

My rantings only , cheers A .

[GTST-25]

thanks for the reply Sydneykid

how would this go ? any good ?

http://www.gcg.com.au/Specials/spoolinspecials.htm

[Abo Bob]

Mate,

You have an auto so there is no flywheel to lighten.

Also, I don't think they call tuned length manifolds headers. Turbo cars don't have headers.

[Suspense]

SK are you sure about stock injectors maxing out @ 205rwkw?

I am askign as my car is getting rebuilt, didnt think of injectors maxing out that early?

If so then what injectors do your reccomend i go for?

Are all 550cc injectors the same, no name brands and big name brands? seen a few Nismo Copy's floating around ebay, any idea on their quality/reliability?

[Dale FZ1]

Sorry Dale , been away with work . I don't really know what a drag turbo is as its not in my sphere of interest . If your using production gearing you need a power curve to suit its spacing and speed range (final drive) . A power curve that starts half way through the engines speed range and hits like locomotive is useless with wide (std) gearing . To me good turbo power starts with modest boost that can be run to the redline as often as desired without hurting anything . It should wake up about a third of the way through the usable rev range and be progressive (controllable) as it climbs onto boost . I think Roy mentioned the power out of corners thing as being more important than the guided missile down the straights idea .

As I mentioned before I prefer the method of least possible back pressure and most turbine torque coupled to a compressor of just a little above the required flow capacity . What this gives is a rotating assembly that gets spun pretty fast at times but not outside its design criteria . This is why all the R/D went into Garretts GTBB turbochargers , low innertia wheels spun faster than the bush bearing designs to create high efficient airflow . Compared to T4's the GTBB turbines appear small and open bladed but generally pass more gass with less restriction at higher speeds . The rolling element ball bearings are there because bush bearings cannot reliably survive the shaft speed and thrust loadings , and the oil shear with the high surface area of bush bearings creates unnecessary drag .  

The GT3071R has it all , the GT30 turbine with its wide range of turbine housing ARR's and a propper high RPM capable GT compressor wheel that will put good transient response and oomph into the mid range . I doubt I'll ever own an RB25DET but the GT3071R would be my choise . I think the rod stroke ratio and the weight of an R33+RB25 Skyline require a sensibly sized turbo to make it a nice package for road and the odd track day .

For the record I don't think HKS market the GT3071R but it is in the current Garrett catalogue PDF .

My rantings only , cheers  A .

Thanks Discopotato03, likewise I've been away but meant to come back to this thread.

I'm with you on the whole driveability issue - having an extra 20-25 kW through the mid range is (to me) more important than an extra 50 kW in the final 1500 rpm of the range. I have no interest in drag applications that seem to favour a rising torque curve (ie peaks near max revs) because they are useless in real world driving where "backup torque" and response are needed to deal with undulating terrain (hills) and traffic conditions without heaps of gear changes. Unless an owner is prepared to alter final drive or gearbox ratios ($$$) to deal with the rpm and lag associated with what I would term a "drag style" turbo match, then I reckon they've fooled themselves into a pissing contest they can't win.

Basically, I believe a street focused modifier should be aiming to replicate the rpm zone where Nissan engineers sited the max power (valve train reliability issues pre-Neo RB25 ) and perhaps slightly lower for max torque (making it feel more lively when acclerating). It is interesting that other makes (Subaru & Mitsubishi) do this for their factory rally hot-ups.

I've done a little homework on the Garrett turbos site, and followed the mathematics in sizing, and it does seem that you're onto a reasonable thing. My question is aimed at the ease of fitment - not sure if the Garrett product has the corrrect flange patterns for either the compressor or turbine to allow a straight-fit as the HKS product does. Sometimes the initial saving is pretty well negated when you have to get other gear changed to suit.

I do believe SydneyKid's experiences are valuable, and probably the most prudent way to go, but I'm interested to see what may be needed to actually install an alternative to the GCG hi-flow, given that there MAY be a technical and practical advantage to the GT3071R.

[Sydneykid]

SK are you sure about stock injectors maxing out @ 205rwkw?

I am askign as my car is getting rebuilt, didnt think of injectors maxing out that early?

If so then what injectors do your reccomend i go for?  

Are all 550cc injectors the same, no name brands and big name brands? seen a few Nismo Copy's floating around ebay, any idea on their quality/reliability?

As usual let's do the numbers;

370 cc injectors = 370 bhp in a 6 cylinder

370 bhp = 276 kw

276 kw - 70 kw losses (manual 60 kw + auto 10kw) = 206 rwkw

You might make 210 rwkw and you might make 200 rwkw, that sort of window depending on the tune.

The next step on the upgrade path is the S15 JDM manual injectors, they are ~450cc's, so good for another 60rwkw or so. Which is pretty close to my rule of thumb max for an internally untouched RB25DET with some k's on it.

After that, pick an aftermarket brand that suites your budget.

Hope that helps:cheers:

[SLY33]

it used to be high flow vs gt2530, now all the rage is GTRS vs 2835

People are quickly getting used to power! I remember when 180rwkw was something to oo and ahh about!

Having the 2835pro myself, i wouldnt describe it as having a lack of response, and thats after moving up from a super punchy 2530. In my opinion both the gtrs and 2835 would make awesome street turbos, but at the end of the day the 2835pro has that extra bit of huff.

[SLY33]

Whenever someone asks about HKS turbos, there is always a few people jumping straight in recommending the cheaper Garret equivalents which use "the same" or supposedly nearly identical bits. What i dont recall seeing is anyone posting up results of these equivalents which can be used for a back to back comparo against the HKS stuff. There are plenty of dyno sheets of hks2530's, 2535's, 2540's, GTRS, 2835 and 3037! With so many people backing these garret equivalents, id really like to see some results. If theyve been done and ive missed them, please provide a link.

cheers

[discopotato03]

Trust me the compressors and turbines in the HKS spec cartridges contain no more kryptonite than those marketed by Garrett . Years ago HKS had a technology agreement with Garrett and could obtain combinations that no one else could . I suspect with monolopy laws being what they are this situation has ended , if the likes of the FIA and CAMS can't have monopolies why should HKS ? What you need to remember is that Garretts bread and butter is OEM turbos for volume sales and economic survival . HKS being aftermarket sells in much smaller volumes and small production runs of specific cartridges would be expensive . HKS want you to believe that their badge engineered Garrett turbos blitz everyone elses ET's with a single whoosh - to separate you from your dollars . If you can get the same results for less money its a win in my book . I should also mention that some cartridges now sold by Garrett can have better results than any in the HKS range because R/D is an on going thing .

My opinions , cheers A .

[Dale FZ1]

Looking at the Garrett catalogue, there does indeed seem to be a GT2871R with the same specs as GT-RS. This is evidently the case for the CHRA (complete assembly, less housings).

One difference does seem evident though, and that is for an aparently equivalent spec, the HKS gear is rated at a higher output.

Another difference that apparently will not allow a bolt-up fit is that it has a T25 flange vs the T3 that Nissan have evidently specified with the OEM gear.

The other is whether the other bolt patterns for the compressor outlet and turbine dump are compatible with the OEM inlet and exhaust ducting or not. Is there anybody with knowledge about this issue? My thoughts are that the Garrett gear should (in theory) be well worth the look, provided they can offer the bolt-up fitment without further mods that the HKS product does.

cheers

[discopotato03]

From a convienence point of view the HKS version wins hands down . The housings are designed to fit in like the standard ones .

As has been said before labour charges in Japan are horrific which would be why HKS's kits come with everything to make the turbo fit - quickly . If they had to pay for all the fiddly one off bits to make generic housings (turbo) fit the car the labour charges would be huge .

Back here at Cactus Island labour is cheaper and many of us will try a bit harder to make the generics fit to save a quid .

Power ratings and turbos - HKS set out to market turbos that would work ok at pressure ratios beyond what the OEM's wanted . No rocket science here , specing a turbo with a more open bladed turbine that wakes up a little later , and with less restriction when the compressor's pumping 1.3 bar boost , is very easy . Its just an alternative combination of bits from other Garrett turbos .

Some suppliers sell HKS exhaust housings separately which is good because it can be the most difficult part of a conversion to get right . I haven't seen their compressor covers separate but occasionally a second hand OEM one will work . Its really not that difficult to adapt the bolt on flange type to barb type or vise versa , this is done all the time with rubber/silicon hoses and elbows or custom pipe work .

Cheers A .

[Suspense]

Will i need a Aftermarket ECU in order to install new injectors? i.e they require tuning?

Or can I directly replace my old injectors with 550cc Nismo;z with a stock computer, and Bosch 040 Fuel pump will be delivering the fuel.

Thanx

[Sydneykid]

The Garrett versus HKS debate rages world wide, it would be so easy to settle if one of the hundreds of magazines around the world did a one on one comparison. I have seen Trust versus HKS comparisons, Apexi versus Trust comparisons.........but I have never seen a HKS versus Garret comparison.

Why do you think that is the case? :confused: :confused: :confused:

Every turbo user/enthusiast wants to know the answer :uh-huh: :uh-huh: :uh-huh:

Surely that would be enough reason to do a comparison

Any magazine that did meaningfull tests would sell like hotcakes :Pimp2: :Pimp2: :Pimp2:

But any results are locked away so we will never find out :lock: :lock: :lock:

My personal theory is the magazines are afraid (very afraid) of doing that comparison. HKS themselves and HKS resellers are big advertisers in those magazines. Imagine what would happen if the comparison proved that there was no difference? Or heaven forbid, the Garrett won?

[Sydneykid]

1. Will i need a Aftermarket ECU in order to install new injectors?

2. i.e they require tuning?

3.Or can I directly replace my old injectors with 550cc Nismo;z with a stock computer, and Bosch 040 Fuel pump will be delivering the fuel.

Thanx

1. Yes, or a piggy back, or a rechip of your standard ECU

2. Yes

3. No

[SLY33]

very true SK! Thats why id love to see even just a personal result from a forum member so we can get even a bit of an idea!

So what your saying disco is that because the garret stuff doesnt bolt straight in, so far no-one has been too bothered to save a quid and try make one fit..! It sounds great, if the garret stuff is internally the same and half the price! There must be other restrictions as to why people dont use them in place of HKS? Its obviously not as simple as a T3 flange adaptor..

[MacGuyver]

Anyone seen the price Nengun's selling the HKS 2835 Pro S for at the moment? $2521.79 delivered (to my joint anyway) That's pretty cheap! (from $3400 or so that they were selling them before) That's-a-spicy meatball!

"The internet? Is that thing still around?"

[BOVed]

Hi,

> Can you please tell me what Garrett turbos I can use to upgrade my 1993

> R32 Nissan skyline GTR Twin turbo that are a direct bolt on fit?. I

> think the car has T28 standard bushed turbos.

> I would prefer turbos with ballbearings flowing 300+ hp each and capable

> of handling 1.2-1.4 bar.

> I have been told from a local mechanic in A.C.T that a GT28r and the

> GT28rs (disco potato) will fit and bolt directly on.

> I have also been told from another mechanic that the GT28r and rs wont

> bolt directly on to a standard skyline and will need certain things

changed.

> Is there a t28 Ball bearing turbo direct fit made?

Can you please recommend what turbos will best suit the engine that come under my budget of $3000..

The engine has just been rebuilt and has forged pistons and the head has been ported flowed.

> I appreciate your time and help.

> Regards

> Michael

>

www.nengun.com

the twin hks gtrs kit for gtr's!

[Munna1]

Does any one know is the garret equivalent for the following turbos?

2530 T3 flange

GTRS T3 flange

2835 PRO S T3 flange

GTSS T25 flange twins for GTR

Do the garret turbos bolt straight on, and do they include water and oil lines like the HKS kits do?

When comparing costs these things need to be considered. Veryinteresting and informative thread guys

cheers

Edited May 26, 2006 by Munna1