Sway Bars (yes again, I searched)

[dangerous_daveo]

Ok, Im looking at sway bars for the cefiro, as Im still not happy with the set up even with rasing the car, the corner balance, numerous oppinions and suggestions (which are all almost identical) in terms of front end set up with camber, caster etc.

Sooo, pros and cons of them. How do they work, why are they needed/not needed. Is adjustable worth the extra money, and finally, Id be using S13 ones, the cef is obviously a fair bit more heavy, and this Im guessing would be even more so on corners, braking etc due to inertia, so keeping that in mind would I need to go bigger.

BTW, the idea of the car is good for normal street driving, more spirited street driving, and then for some semis to be thrown on the car for track stuff. Basically set up for fun, not professional race car or drift car.

Thanks!

[NZM.031]

swaybars will not affect the ride or comfort in a straight line, they dont have the same affect as shocks and springs or bushes... their proper name is anti-roll bars.

they connect the chassis to the control arms and hold it stiff through out corners, reducing body roll, keeping the car centred throughout the corner. alot of coilovers are that stiff that emphasis on swaybars is not so important. if you want to see how much of an affect swaybars have, remove them all together and go for a drive...body roll central as the car is relying on the springs to take the weight of the car + inertia of the corner.

they dont affect castor or camber, or any alignment specs.

aftermarket adj. s13 ones will be fine in the ceffy, they arent that much heavier. yes it is worth getting adjustable ones.

hope that helps

cheers

Linton

[Dale FZ1]

Probably the thing to recognise is that the anti-roll bars don't much affect a car's ride/handling compromise in a straight line. It's the dynamics of lateral weight transfer when changing direction (turning) that they impact on quite significantly. Adjustable bars can give you the option of quickly altering the dynamics, say if you wanted to induce specific characteristics for drift or circuit work.

For handling upgrades there seems to be two schools of thought: big bars; and high-rate springs. Anti-roll bars at least allow you to retain ride quality and power-down because the wheels can maintain closer contact with the ground imperfections rather than the chatter that can occur with rock hard springs. Adjustable bars allow you to mimic the effect of installing different size (diameter) bars by changing the leverage rate between the bar and chassis. Using them just gives you the option of making the car respond differently, quickly.

Anti-roll bars are actually a laterally mounted torsion bar (spring). Because they store and then release engergy, they impact on the RATE of lateral weight transfer and hence the rate of suspension movement, they control the rate of camber change that a given wheel experiences in that cornering moment. So yes, bars will not affect your static suspension settings - but in the dynamic environment they will. That is partly how changing their sizes brings about handling differences.

[dangerous_daveo]

I looked on the whiteline site before, and they seem to be about $500 for a set (havent done the normal run around to find the cheapest price yet).

I was going to say is $500 worth it compaired to say 'X' something else, but I dont think there is anything else that I can do without going nuts.

Im still interested to know someone whos done some track work with out them, but say decent suspension gear, then got the sway bars on, and whats their lap time improvement been like.

[Sydneykid]

I looked on the whiteline site before, and they seem to be about $500 for a set (havent done the normal run around to find the cheapest price yet).

I was going to say is $500 worth it compaired to say 'X' something else, but I dont think there is anything else that I can do without going nuts.

Im still interested to know someone whos done some track work with out them, but say decent suspension gear, then got the sway bars on, and whats their lap time improvement been like.

Same springs, same shocks, same tyres, same camber , same caster, same engine power, 3 seconds a lap faster at Eastern Creek.

[dangerous_daveo]

Thanks SK, thats a big SOLD sticker for me! 3secs is a HELL of a lot on any track other than the full Nurburgring

[Ionos]

Aftermarket sway bars are a 'good thing', but to say they dont affect ride comfort is simply not true. A heavier sway bar reduces the 'independance' of the rear suspension, and thus ride quality is definately affected.

[NZM.031]

Ionos.....is it???

[Ionos]

Come again?

[justin911]

I got a whiteline swaybar for my r33, it was like just under $200.

I've got no clue about racing/suspension etc etc, but I think it made a differance to the handling, the car was more reponsive when turning, Kinda made it feel abit heavier and smoother. It felt safer and more comfortable going round the corners faster than before basicaly.

[dangerous_daveo]

Aftermarket sway bars are a 'good thing', but to say they dont affect ride comfort is simply not true. A heavier sway bar reduces the 'independance' of the rear suspension, and thus ride quality is definately affected.

Not a big issue that, with the suspension and the diff, its not that comfy to start with

[NZM.031]

ionos.... ive had heavier swaybars fitted to all my cars, havent got any for the 33 yet though. but on my honda, r31 skyline, and my 00' subaru liberty, and didnt notice any change in driving in a straight line, also made cornering much more stable and comfortable, body was all over the shop and carrying on.

what makes you say that ride quality is affected??? with swaybars, there is no downside.

[dangerous_daveo]

They are going to be put on the back burner for a bit anyway. Spoke to another suspension shop and they seem to think most of my problem is set up (and they said new whiteline price list is coming out soon and they are going to be cheaper). But he seems to think TOO MUCH castor, and too much rear camber. So what he is saying is fix that up first, see if thats whats causeing oversteer still (which he was quite sure would be). Then go sway bars after that to see what effect they have. But he didnt want to try and bandaid the problem.

[someonestolecc]

Daveo - not to hi jack but I'd like to post some observations from a drive I recently did and the things I noticed and if they're the same as you are trying to get rid of.

Basically, 2 things. One was I seemed to get a lot of 'washy' understeer from corners around 70-100kmh which resembled driving a GTiR. That is, it wasn't full understeer but enough for me not to like and feel the front wheels slipping through the corner. This was not at redline but probably about 50% rpm or less (because I didn't feel like coming off the corner heh heh so wasn't pushing it).

The second was when braking late (I didn't anticipate the corner being so long and so angled) the car really REALLY felt like going to the apex. Fair enough I realise that's just bad driving but it was the first time I really felt the weight of the ceffy. I would have thought you can counter this somewhat by suspension settings.

Are these the things you are also experiencing? Because as far as I know I don't have sway bars (or if I do they're stock).

[dangerous_daveo]

Not hijacking at all dude, its good to see what others cars are doing.

The first bit kinda... atm I find my car really quite settled, never too scared to keep the boot in. Plus we have changed mine so it WONT kick out, it just seems if I power down, it goes straight (no where near as much as it did before we raised it 2inches) And the outsides of my tyres are still wearing more than the outside.

I find with braking tho mine is fine, I'll out brake most cars, doesnt feel heavy or anything. And I still need to get braided lines, and a brake booster stopper on. But I did get the sensation you are taking about, its more so a mental thing I think, as you reaise its getting a bit close a bit fast, so you think the car isnt slowing down.

[Duncan]

......he seems to think TOO MUCH castor......

That seems an unusual thing to say. The only real downside to heaps of castor is heavy steering, and since we all run power steering thats not an issue. How much caster are you running?

[Restless 33]

can someone post up a part number for the R33 GTS-T adjustable sway bar from white line for me, and is it worth the money?

cheers, Mark

[someonestolecc]

Daveo - cheers.

1- When you say straight - do you mean straight into the apex against the way the wheels are pointed? if so that's what I felt.

2- My brakes are great, r32 type M + project mu brake pads. The feeling I meant was the car had no problem stopping, but if you picture heading round the corner, just before the apex, lock it up and you'll head straight out of the apex and off the track. This is the sensation I mean.. the feeling that the car is just... very much heading out of the apex on a late brake. I know you'd get this with any car but the ceff I just felt it a helluva lot more (for what seemed to be not much late braking at all) than I expected.

[dangerous_daveo]

That seems an unusual thing to say.  The only real downside to heaps of castor is heavy steering, and since we all run power steering thats not an issue.  How much caster are you running?

What he is saying is it induces bump steer etc, and for the extra bit of stablity you get its not worth it. Remember cefiro is S13 suspension, so not as good as skylines.

[justin911]

restless33, i think the adjustable bar from whiteline for the r33 is 'BNF24X'.

I got the 'BNF24' which isnt adjustable for like $175.

Should get some whiteline pineapples as well (KCA349).