MAGIC Cat vs NEW CATCO Cat

[browny]

they'd have grounds to sue you for deformation.

Is shape changing illegal.

Sorry, couldn't resist.

[pkblade]

shaun works/owns/is dating the owner of magic cats i assume? :bananaman

Nah, he's doing a Magic cat group buy at the moment, thus defending against the allegations.

To help put this matter to rest is anyone here willing to be a guinea pig & put theirs (Magic cat) through an EPA test?

Depending on the results, I can tell you it will sway my decision on which cat I will buy, coz I want a less restrictive (legal) cat than my current generic hi-flow one & also I already have a race pipe.

[predator]

hmmm.. this thread should be locked.. I think it crossed a line somewhere between facts and people with close connections to either product.

[someonestolecc]

hmmm.. this thread should be locked.. I think it crossed a line somewhere between facts and people with close connections to either product.

I'd rather have it left open to public scrutiny so that we can have some truth at the end of it... That's my view as a consumer.

[BATMBL]

shaun,

im not sure why you are so passionate about Magic cats and why you would be so piss.ed off at my thread, i really didnt expect this of you. posts like this only show your immaturity, ignorance and desparation. if you read my first post, i have clearly stated my intentions for this thread. i have this feeling that if i get these papers anyway, and show them here, you will still not be convinced of the results (due to ignorance) and then would show them to magic and he will just deny everything, obviously by word, not papers, since he would have dismissed the claims straight away by showing you the papers etc... so what have we accomplished? back to square one.

as for me, playing a certain part in this industry, i dont see how its very hard to provide evidence of your products working the way you claim them to be working. why the big dramas in providing this evidence, evidence that he needs to have on hand at any time if he gets a knock on the door and gets questioned? afterall, you need to be able to show evidence of what YOU claim YOUR product does. why should it be up to others to show evidence of what your product does or doesnt do? i can say my cats flow twice as much as magics, but how will i proove it? hard evidence is what i need. so when you claim your cat passes emmissions, show the evidence and its done, all settled.

im sure a potential customer of a companys product has the right to check things through if they believe that something may not be right with the product, by looking at certain paperwork etc. the way to do this with a catalytic converter is to show the emissions approval papers for it. i have never met nor have any intention to 'defamate' magic. i personally think that yes, they may be some 'history' behind catco and magic, but i dont care about that, i dont work for catco, i just sell their products, just like advan sells trust products. i have just been informed and thought id share it with fellow enthusiast vehicle owners, the people most likely to buy this product...

i know his product doesnt work, and have posted it on this public forum so people can voice their opinions and concerns about it, things that many people are interested in due to recent/heavy advertising, on whether it actually is worth buying.

just because you have organised the magic cat group buy, i dont see the need to get so offended by this thread, as im sure its not any of your fault and no one would think that of you. i can see how it can be hard for you to ask him to proove that they do, as you have organised this with him and have formed a good relationship etc. so maybe the key is to get someone else that is keen to know the answer and ask for them himself. i am not in a court case to provide all the evidence there is to prove the cats dont work to a jury.

simply as the post above says, go get a test done once you have bought the cat and see for yourself, then you can share with all of us your experience, and that way there is no arguements when the results come out. since you are so convinced and ignorant that they work because you read some article about a product you dont know much about. when you get the results, please post them here if you get the chance to before i try to.

there is not much more for me to say, and believe me, im not having a 'laugh' about this or doing it because im bored, i really just dont have the time for it.

[Sydneykid]

The problems I have with testing are;

1. Who? The EPA is not a good choice for "who" on a modified car, what if it fails?

2. How much? Last time I had a car emissions tested the cost was over $2K.

3. Buying an 5 gas emissions tester is not a viable option. Last time I checked they were around $US5K.

My experiences today;

I have 2 Skylines here and 1 Stagea, one of the Skylines has a Magic cat that I bought and piad for and I have receipt that says "catalytic onverter". The other Skyline has no cat, it is a race car after all. The Stagea still has the fairly new (less than 12 months old) compliance cat on it, not for long though. They are all filled up with BP Ultimate from the same service station. They are all tuned pretty much the same, on the same dyno and by the same person. The Stagea is the only one without a Power FC, it has a DFA as it is an auto.

Now I let them idle until they are warmed up, noting that they all run closed loop so the A/F ratio aim would be around 14.7.

The race car (no cat) smells most

The Stagea is next, most likely because of its state of tune

The Magic cat fitted Skyline smells better than the Stagea

My nose is pretty good and I would have thought that if the Magic cat did nothing (same as the straight though pipe on the race car) then it would smell as bad as the race car. Also, it has a spare fitting for the dyno lambda sensor on the split dump/engine pipe, and it gives different readings there than when I stick the lambda sensor up the tail pipe. This is quite normal on a car fitted with a cat. Whereas the race car gives almost zero difference.

Hence I remain sceptical:cheers:

[BATMBL]

sydneykid,

i have always respected your posts and continue to do so, as it can clearly be seen you know what you are talking about and have logical thinking. i see how your testing can lead you to this conclusion. the EPA however wont be tesing emissions with their noses or a lambda sensor(no pun intended there!). whether it smells different or not may be due to the mesh, i mean afterall the heat from this mesh may certainly burn up some of the gasses that cause certain smells from the exhaust. the problem is, its most likely not the gasses you can smell that the EPA test for, or the readings picked up by a lambda sensor, but by some special equipment/sensors which are mounted at the back of the exhaust. im quite sure that all compliance centres need to have this equipment under the new RAWS in order to perform their own testing on every car after the compliance cat has been put on, so im sure they wont be charging $2k for a 5min test if you ask them to do one for you. i remember when i was working at the compliance centre and the equipment was being ordered prior to the new RAWS rules taking effect.

also, i have just been informed of some new things which i was not aware of. magic mufflers is the importer of these cats. they are not made by magic himself, he has just branded them magic cat (obviously due to their muffler shop name). magic mufflers is obviously not a cat manufacturer, its a small muffler shop in castle hill i think catco said, and magic stores only a small amount of them at a time, making about 30 sales a month. the cats are made overseas and he apparently because of not knowing too much about all the rules and emissions requirements of cats here in aus (about 3000 pages worth of docs) has imported them in quite cheap, not thinking that he would have this problem and that there is more to importing/selling cats than just the look of the product itself. they basically dont have the catalyst in them.

when a cat gets registered after it gets an approval, it is given a number. e.g catco may have 30 different types of cats, and each would get an approval number for passing emissions. apparently he thought he can still sell the cats here in aus anyway, since in some states these emissions rules apparently dont apply. to cut a long story short, the magic cat is just an imported product from overseas which unfortunately due to our strict emmissions rules will not in any way pass here, and this is also why you will not notice the reputable exhaust shops stocking this product through magic being the 'distributer'. e.g liverpool exhaust, hi-tech mufflers and so on. he would have made good money this way if they were designed with passing emissions in mind, since it is a great idea to bring them in since there was nothing like it here, but unfortunately its not suitable in 'most parts of aus' due no catalyst being evident in the cat. i actually feel kind of sorry for him, as it really was a good idea, but unfortunately not thought out too much,as he didnt know all the rules and must have rushed it for sales.

i also found out there is actually no feud or history between catco and magic mufflers, as magic is not a competitor with catco, one is a catalytic converter manufacturer and the other is a small exhaust shop, which catco actually had/has supplied to before and has also spoken to him on many occasions.

so again, this is not a thread to bag out magic's cats, but an informative thread, especially for those who live in qld, nsw and vic (not sure about w.a or the rest), where the EPA is not very kind to exhausts with bad emissions/no cats. keep in mind also that by magic actually selling these cats, he can get fined as he sells them in nsw, not in a state with little or no emissions policies. unfortunately the loophole he was looking for is closed in that respect.

[shif_tea]

BATMBL i am on noones side in this whole affair, but so far all i've heard is pretty close to slander. Without any real proof you have publically accused this company of fraud amongst other things.

I'm currently buying a magic cat, but i'm not defending them, in fact if what you say is true i want to be the first to know. I'll quite happily take it back and buy a catco to replace it if thats the case.

I think you ought to be careful and get some actual evidence before anouncing these theories publically, also i find it hard to believe that this whole matter is totally out of caring for us and has nothing to do with the current trend toward buying magic cats on the forums and in group buys. However i am quite cynical.

Anyway i just think that a bit of proof of some sort wouldn't go astray, a lack of evidence does not constitute guilt as far as i'm concerned (are you sure you don't work in the indonesian legal system?? ) Nor does some of the heresay you've been using.

Once again, if you do get some proof please post it asap cause i would love to know.

[Sydneykid]

sydneykid,

 

i see how your testing can lead you to this conclusion. the EPA however wont be tesing emissions with their noses or a lambda sensor(no pun intended there!). whether it smells different or not may be due to the mesh, i mean afterall the heat from this mesh may certainly burn up some of the gasses that cause certain smells from the exhaust. the problem is, its most likely not the gasses you can smell that the EPA test for, or the readings picked up by a lambda sensor, but by some special equipment/sensors which are mounted at the back of the exhaust. im quite sure that all compliance centres need to have this equipment under the new RAWS in order to perform their own testing on every car after the compliance cat has been put on, so im sure they wont be charging $2k for a 5min test if you ask them to do one for you. i remember when i was working at the compliance centre and the equipment was being ordered prior to the new RAWS rules taking effect.

 

I am not agreeing or dissagreeing with you, the jury is still out as far as I am concerned. All I am doing is relating my experiences. I am quite well aware of the necessary equipment required for emissions testing, I worked in the car industry for several years and we had to certify all new models.

I rang 2 RAWS workshops and neither of them will do any car that isn't their own for compliance. Got the story about only being licenced for certain vehicles ie; not Stageas. Now there are only 4 Stagea compliance shops, 3 in Qld and 1 in WA. I'm sure as hell not sending the Stagea there for emissions testing.

Sorry, I am not silly enough to send the Stagea to the EPA.

The question remains, WHO?

What I can say is the Magic cat removes somethings as the exhaust has quite a different odour to the straight through 3" pipe on the race car. This may be the result of the oxidation catalyst as it removes the unburned hydrocarbons and carbon monoxide. Picking NO or NO2 removal is not something even my calibrated nose would be capable of.

Moving on;

There is some discussion about Magic being too cheap for a "real" catalytic converter, well here is an extract from a current Catco dealer price list;

OXD/TWC/TWC With AIR - 5.9L Max. Eng. Size

5000 lbs. Max. Vehicle Wt. Part #

3" Inlet X 3" Outlet - 16 1/2" Overall 2607

Part Number Price Each 10 - 99 Price Each 100 - 299 Price Each 300+

2607 $US63.52 $US60.58 $US57.35

So I can buy a single Catco 3" inlet and 3" outlet catalytic converter for a 5.9 litre engine for the princely sum of $US63.52 (that's $A82.50). On that basis it doesn't appear to me that Magic cats are too cheap to be a "real" cat.

More to come on this I am sure:cheers:

[GTRgeoff]

An automotive engineering authority that does compliance engineering should have the emissions test equipment.

[Shaun]

BATMBL i am on noones side in this whole affair, but so far all i've heard is pretty close to slander. Without any real proof you have publically accused this company of fraud amongst other things.  

I'm currently buying a magic cat, but i'm not defending them, in fact if what you say is true i want to be the first to know. I'll quite happily take it back and buy a catco to replace it if thats the case.

I think you ought to be careful and get some actual evidence before anouncing these theories publically, also i find it hard to believe that this whole matter is totally out of caring for us and has nothing to do with the current trend toward buying magic cats on the forums and in group buys. However i am quite cynical.

Anyway i just think that a bit of proof of some sort wouldn't go astray, a lack of evidence does not constitute guilt as far as i'm concerned (are you sure you don't work in the indonesian legal system?? ) Nor does some of the heresay you've been using.

Once again, if you do get some proof please post it asap cause i would love to know.

This is exactly what i meant!

Im sorry, but i got a bit worked up this afternoon, and it clearly showed in my thread (obscenities etc). I find it difficult to express myself without resorting to swearing; sorry for that. I really do agree with shift_tea, though; there is alot of slander going on here without concrete evidence.

I dont know (or date) anyone from magic, i havent even met them; no affiliation what so ever, im just sceptical about what Michael is saying due to lack of evidence. I only organised the group buy because i wanted a cheap cat! I assumed that because they were called catalytic converters, they actually were. I still believe they are until proven otherwise.

By deformation, i meant deformation of character (or business).

I was speaking to a friend today, and he suggested that 'verses' threads (ie magic V's Catco) should be banned from this forum. I tend to agree with this because it promotes heresay and ill informed, non researched comments about topics and businesses that have the potential to be extremely damaging. I really do believe that this thread has crossed the line.

Hope i havent made any ememies!

Shaun.

[BATMBL]

shaun,

certainly havent made enemies with me, im not offended at all, just trying to share info with you guys which can be very helpful. i mean how is it any different than a bunch of guys talking about this at a meet or something. the difference is i have proof. read below.

shif tea,

of course most poeple are cynical in this world we live in, so they got to ask whats in it for him, theres got to be something etc. well, what is the purpose of these forums? to sell things and buy things, thats it? no, its to share information about topics related to our cars etc the fact that i have said magics cats are useless and a waste of money... is yes ....my opinion, but unfortunately the truth also. ...evidence you say?

there is all the evidence you need, and it doesnt have to be provided by myself. i'll tell you why. i have just been advised that you can call the EPA directly and they can tell you whether the 'magic cat' passes emissions, as they have a database of all approved cats, catco and supercat(carsound) of which are the main ones in the list(why do you think these are the most common brands used in compliance?). ofcourse your call would have to be something like 'i have a skyline with a standard cat, looking at buying this cat called magic cat'. i assure you that if you call them and ask them whether the magic cat has an approval that they have passed emissions, they will look it up, and find that the magic cat doesnt exist..why? because only approved cats and their series are on that list, simple.

this way no one has to get cars tested because it may just be too hard (of course if you can, go for your life!), just like with the small drama sydneykid has gone through...they have obviously given him the bs 'we dont have time for that' treatment.

i have a good reputation on the forums and there is no way i would wreck it just because there a group buy going around for the magic cat...thats quite pathetic. i would not be saying what i am saying unless i knew 100% that its true. for those that want to remain ignorant, you should probably close the thread and forget about it, just keep thinking what you thought before about this cat, hopefully the epa wont have to tell you what i have been trying to tell you. for those that want to know what they are paying for is not a cat, then keep yourself posted on the thread.

i will get the number for those who want to ring within the next few days and post it, as tomorrow is a wknd so im sure i wont get too far. that should rest the case.

i also saw the documents needed today (U.S docs) at catco which state their cat 'so and so' has been approved by the epa and passes emissions. its there in black and white for catco, and that is what magic mufflers cant provide for their magic cat, as his supplier has screwed him with the substrates(biscuits). i saw the difference between the mesh being only stainless steel with no coat and then with the coat. you can actually tell the difference, as the coating is a light pastel green colour, and it should have a 2000 series stamp on it, this being anthything from 2000-2900 for that type of biscuit that both catco and magic use. you would be suprised how very small the cat industry is and how quickly things can be discovered, as there are only a few manufacturers and a few major brands being supplied by them. the owner of catco here is blood relatives with the owner of the manufacturer in USA...so, nothing gets past him. the unfortunate thing is catco told the owner at magic exhaust about his problem right at the beginning, as he didnt realise what he bought wasnt right, but of course what is he going to do...recall them all now that he has sold an x amount? obviously he should have..but being a small business, that would probably kill you. so he has to maintain that its all good, by word obviously.

i did notice also about the fact that magic shouldnt sell the cats if they are illegal etc...well i ask you, how many of us buy atmospheric blow off valves, pod filters, >90db exhausts etc...they are all illegal, but you can still buy them. the onus is up to you.

the fact that you may have a receipt which says cat converter is great, but if your car doesnt pass emissions at an EPA, dont think that by showing that receipt everything is going to go away. prob going to have to go to court etc and waste time prooving its not your fault. its a shame that magic got rooted with the cats by his supplier, but anything a lot cheaper than its counterparts has got to have some big downside, thats just how it goes, i guess thats what can happen when you put profit first....think about it..$700 or so when they first came out?? now at about $200 or so? hmmm..

[Sydneykid]

anything a lot cheaper than its counterparts has got to have some big downside, thats just how it goes,

Sorry BATMBL, but the facts simply don't support that line. As per my last post, I can buy a single Catco catalytic converter with 3" in 3 " out for a 5.9 litre engine for $A82.50. Add about $A20 for freight, no duty as it is coming from the US (good on you Johnny, Free Trade Agreement) and 10% GST. That's $112.75 if it gets caught for GST, pretty unlikey at that price. I don't see a lot of downside in that, after all it must be a legal cat as it is coming from Catco.

[BATMBL]

hi sydneykid

the cats you are refering to are not the same cats that are for sale here, by both magic and catco. the cats biscuits are not ceramic, like the ones priced on that list, they are stainless steel, with coating. also the cats we are refering to are at 200 cells per sq inch not (again i cant remember the holes per sq in ch on the ceramic, i know there is a lot more though) but they are quite different, especially in price.

the one in the price list you are refering to is the one i sell for $190, the small body 3" cat. the difference is i make mine bolt on, so i eliminate the customer having to go to the exhaust shop and get charged $50-$80 to get the flanges welded on and the cat to be fitted, people can do this at home. also you are buying from aus, so any issues, then its very easy to sort things out. do you see how fairly & close to cost i charge for these products? i know before i started 2.5yrs ago, exhaust shops were selling 3" cats for over $300-$350 easy.

if you consider the high flow apexi or nismo cats having similar (maybe same, cant confirm) stainless steel mesh inside and stainless steel bodies outside charging at just under $1000, the cat im sure wouldnt only cost them $100 or so, i mean could they be ripping the public off that much, making 1000%+ profits??

also the body of the cat is made of 304sus surgical grade stainless steel on the cats im talking about, not (cant remember which number) stainless steel, which is just the ordinary dull one. the difference between a non coated biscuit and a coated stainless steel biscuit can be about let say for arguements sake US$30. if you are buying in bulk, say about 200 a month for a small business or over 1000+ for a larger business, that extra money adds up like you dont believe.

he thought he was getting a good deal, not realising what he was buying was just the mesh at that pricem not incl coating, thats the issue. i dont think he even knew the stainless steel biscuits needed a coating....also im quite sure that those prices are non existant here in aus, no retailer will be selling a 3" cat for $130 or so, not unless its made in china and it also doesnt have any approval papers for passing emissions.!

[predator]

You raise some good points BATMBL, and I don't see you need to justify selling your products for a bit of profit, after all, you don't do it "just for fun" I am sure

[abflug]

I am owner of a RAWS and would be interested in doing a back to back test on these cats. If anyone is keen let me know.

[Sydneykid]

hi sydneykid

 

the cats you are refering to are not the same cats that are for sale here, by both magic and catco. the cats biscuits are not ceramic, like the ones priced on that list, they are stainless steel, with coating. also the cats we are refering to are at 200 cells per sq inch not (again i cant remember the holes per sq in ch on the ceramic, i know there is a lot more though) but they are quite different, especially in price.  

 

the one in the price list you are refering to is the one i sell for $190, the small body 3" cat. the difference is i make mine bolt on, so i eliminate the customer having to go to the exhaust shop and get charged $50-$80 to get the flanges welded on and the cat to be fitted, people can do this at home. also you are buying from aus, so any issues, then its very easy to sort things out. do you see how fairly & close to cost i charge for these products? i know before i started 2.5yrs ago, exhaust shops were selling 3" cats for over $300-$350 easy.

 

if you consider the high flow apexi or nismo cats having similar (maybe same, cant confirm) stainless steel mesh inside and stainless steel bodies outside charging at just under $1000, the cat im sure wouldnt only cost them $100 or so, i mean could they be ripping the public off that much, making 1000%+ profits??

 

also the body of the cat is made of 304sus surgical grade stainless steel on the cats im talking about, not (cant remember which number) stainless steel, which is just the ordinary dull one. the difference between a non coated biscuit and a coated stainless steel biscuit can be about let say for arguements sake US$30. if you are buying in bulk, say about 200 a month for a small business or over 1000+ for a larger business, that extra money adds up like you dont believe.  

 

he thought he was getting a good deal, not realising what he was buying was just the mesh at that pricem not incl coating, thats the issue. i dont think he even knew the stainless steel biscuits needed a coating....also im quite sure that those prices are non existant here in aus, no retailer will be selling a 3" cat for $130 or so, not unless its made in china and it also doesnt have any approval papers for passing emissions.!

Sorry BATMBL, I think I need to explain my point a little better.

I can buy a California legal hi flow 3" in 3" out (with flanges) 409 stainless steel encased catalytic converter with 16 gauge pipe for a 5.9 litre engine from any one of 50 (or so) Catco distributors in the US for ~$US80. The California catalytic converter emissions standards are amongst the tightest in the world. If a cat passes in California then it would have no problems passing in Australia.

A distributor is going to make 25% min, Catco must be making 15%, that means the complete cat costs Catco around $US50, so the most the coating can cost is $US10. It simply makes no sense to me that anyone would import and sell an illegal cat when you could have a legal one for $US10 more. It is simply rediculous to even consider it, the risks are too high.

This leaves me with only one conclusion and it involves what is "legal". Let's say the Magic cat is made by someone overseas who couldn't give a rats about Australia's emmision testing. They know the cat passes but the volume is too small to pay for compliance certification. Small volume importing is always facing this issue but it doesn't mean the product is bad or doesn't work. All it means is the size of the Australian market and its unique (and sometimes stupid) requirements does not warrant the cost of the testing and paperwork.

[Sydneykid]

I am owner of a RAWS and would be interested in doing a back to back test on these cats. If anyone is keen let me know.

Ah now there's an offer........thanks abflug

OK BATMBL time for a put up or shut up test (my favourite).

I will buy another brand new Magic cat and put it on the Stagea, if it passes you pay for it. If it doesn't pass, I will buy two of your Catcos.

Are we on? :Pimp2:

[Shaun]

This is it BATMBL! Youve gotta do it now!

Ill be the first to apologise if what you have suggested about magic is true. Sydneykid raised some extremely good points in the above posts. There's got to be more to it than a (magics) total disregard to Australias environmental and fair trading laws.

Youve left yourself with no option but to accept abflugs and sydneykids offer! Thanks guys.

[Sydneykid]

Ah now there's an offer........thanks abflug

OK BATMBL time for a put up or shut up test (my favourite).

I will buy another brand new Magic cat and put it on the Stagea, if it passes you pay for it.  If it doesn't pass, I will buy two of your Catcos.

Are we on? :Pimp2:

Plus if you are right, I will run it up on our 4wd dyno with the Catco and publish the power gains over the standard compliance cat. I will even write and submit an article to HPI and Zoom for them to publish. I can't guarantee that they will publish it of course:cheers: