Stainless or factory exhaust manifolds, results inside.

[Boosted Zed]

Yes dnb I know Andrew and have been using him for some zed plenums for a long time prior to discovering James from Abrasive Flow. I have been asking for pics of his flow bench test and power port machine as he is so far away I can't just pop in. Still waiting. Have you been there and seen? It seems to be a sand blast type finish rather than a smooth polished finish like extrude honing. Extrude honing is different method and results although it all helps. With extrude honing it is expensive to tool up as you need to make flanges to mount eh item in a jig to pump the gue which is under high pressure.

Anyway I have been through this with other threads and suck or blow virtually the same thing. In fact in most applications exactly. You guys can contemplate and ponder and wonder and get all tied up in technical concepts etc but don't get lost or confused in just debating. It is good to be sceptical just don't get too caught up in it. It is good to get feedback and questions though.

UNDERSTAND this simple fact all tests are done the same $36,000 flow bench machine and same method and procedure, so weather suck blow etc and all runners are tested.

Also there is not enough room to get equal length runners and if there was it would limit size of turbo or just won't fit bolted to engine, unless going high mount and would probably have tighter bends. By the way what if the stainless ones tested were Gucci Jap brand name items.

No we have not done dyno before and after although have sold and fitted a lot, although always with other mods like bigger turbo's or cams etc so can't say for sure. We probably spend more time testing things than most other workshops but it is not viable to test everything and certainly not this as 15 hours to fit these puppies is not something I am willing to pay for. If there are any candidates I would do cheaper but I am not effectively paying approx 15 hours or more plus dyno time to prove it. We did the next best thing and in a way better and that is flow bench test. Flow bench testing is used extensively by serious race teams and engine builders, not back yard bob.

One thing for sure we know they are less restriction as proper flow bench test shows although not bolted to head if you did it would also flow more after honing.

The engine is like a pump you get air in and out and the more air the more fuel you need, so unless there is a restriction further along the system then increasing the flow of a component which we KNOW it does from flow bench test then we know it will make more power. I would not expect anything like 10% more power by having even 15% more flow as for example standard turbo's will only pump so much although will do it easier, cooler and safer and maybe less boost. Bigger turbo's and ported heads would probably benefit more. You need to look at the whole thing. For example we found by putting bigger throttle bodies on a zed actually made very little difference as twin 50mm seem to cope unless going BIG turbo's. What we found was the restriction was in the head and need porting and larger valves.

Bottom line common sense applies if you match port and smooth out and it shows up in more flow on the flow bench test then don't you think it would transpire into more power or do you think less. Please.

Note the stainless ones do flow more than the stock ones so at least those who bought and fitted them have not gone backwards as some Gucci stuff can although it looks bling. Flow bench tests shows this and check the results. "Oh OK I will buy them for $2 grand as they come with a SKH Bling Sticker and my mate says you can polish them before you put them on." My mate makes ....rwkw with them so they must work. Think about it some take on face value and pay often BIG money for BLING and get the sticker and don't question it or test it. Then you get figures on something with no bling sticker or brand name and same people say NO can't be. Funny hey?

No brand name on them. They are not rough and look well made. Do HKS ones have a logo or stamp although could have come off.

[dnb]

nah i dont live near him. but everytime ive rang him he has talked my ear off hahahhaa:)

it definately works, ive had stuff flow balanced by him,

and with the times his centura is pulling nobody can argue the fact that it works

[dangerous_daveo]

Quick question. You say stainless isnt as good. Where does steampipe fit in? As this is what I have been told to use by many people, as its cheaper, and would appear to produce better results than the stainless, amoung other benifits. So basically Im interested to know if you have done any tests with these. Id take a guess and say there arent any 'off the self jap' items, so you would probably have to base it on a custom one.

Simply asking the question. Very interesting read none the less.

[BU5TER]

Why can't stainless manifolds be HPC coated?

[DoughBoy]

If anyone has some stainless ones we will test at no charge and report results.

I have some "bling" manifolds, so I'm going to take you up on the offer to flow them for free. Both exhaust and intake, so would be interesting to see how they compare to the extruded exhausts and the Plazma intake.

The flowbench being used iirc is the 1020 version, and is calibrated at 25inches. Also iirc the later model superflow benches report less flow than previous models, as they are more precise with measurments.

[Boosted Zed]

I have some "bling" manifolds, so I'm going to take you up on the offer to flow them for free. Both exhaust and intake, so would be interesting to see how they compare to the extruded exhausts and the Plazma intake.

The flowbench being used iirc is the 1020 version, and is calibrated at 25inches. Also iirc the later model superflow benches report less flow than previous models, as they are more precise with measurments.

Buster shiny polished staino is too slippery and not good to coat, steam pipe is the go as if made right then far less likely to crack and can be tidied up with die grinder and optional extrusion honed and HPC treated.

Yes dnb I have had lots of flow figures also from Andrew for zed and FTO stuff he does for us, although this is what I am wondering on what machine and how does he do it as figures seem a bit odd. I might call him again today to discuss.

No dangerous_deveo I have not had tests done any tests on steam pipe ones for GTR and they could be better although could also be worse. Prob is it is hard to get smooth edges or joins where pipes are welded together and yes can be extrude honed as only way to get inside them to smooth it out. Thing is though in this case the factory design is nice and hard to improve on especially if at the sacrifice of sharp edges bumps from welds inside. Cast is smoth in design just rough surface which is fixed with extrude hone.

Our next motor we are doing in my slot car is VQ35 alloy block and going for 1000hp and need to make custom manifolds as they only come non turbo anyway. Will be going external gate which is another can of worms. GTR with well made big single turbo and external gate is probably the go for big power and flow, but this is a different subject or set up. More room then to have nice runners.

By the way we have been through the same deal with zeds as had some stainless ones tested adn a bit better than stock but not as good as extrusion honed so we use the factory manifolds and still crack and radiate heat so no good. We use factory manifolds extrude honed and coated and makes over 400rwkw with twin S15 turbo's similar to N1 sepecs with GTR's that don't make anything like that. Now has twin GT28RS so bit bigger. There are other design zed stainless manifolds and the runners go up the side of the head and are more equal lenght with external gates and big turbo's that are BIG money although they look like they couldwork well. I have customers that have these and more than our zed yet don't make quite as much power and much laggier. Ours makes 200rwkw at 3400 and yet still makes over 400rwkw so must be doing something right. Show me another 6 cylinder engine that does this? Way back we had some bling Greddy turbo system with staino manifolds with external gates and VERY coarse welds and dags which we spent hours die grinding and linishing and welding up cracks and putting extra gussets and they still cracked. I bet my house they flowed ordinary also. The intake pipes and hoses were smaller and had sharp edges and would have flowed worse than factory so tossed all that. For a $15k retail turbo kit it was ordinary to be polite. For less than a third of this price and using the stock manifolds we had much better result but no Greddy Sticker.

Also Sydneykid made a good point that I have been trying to explain in this and other threads about is better balance of flow from each runner and improves power and motor would like it better over the long run and when pushing it hard which is what it is about. I think this is more critical on intake as effects air fuel ratio.

[Roy]

You say stainless isnt as good.  Where does steampipe fit in?  

Steam pipe comes in either stainless or mild steel. Essentially ppl seem to like it as the wall thickness is a lot thicker and in turn is naturally a heavier construction when finished. John touched on the fact that it is very difficult to have uniform penetration on a steam pipe bend, its not impossible but id be surprised if the internals were as clean and uniform as a stainless manifold. Also because of the wall thickness it is difficult to package a nice 6 cylinder manifold

Now all this talk of stainless manifolds cracking. I dont believe its near as common as ppl believe. It all goes back to what the internals look like. If a weld lacks penetration, or used the wrong filler wire and amps etc etc, but the outside polishes up fine... who who cares it looks good and will pass most buyers inspections. But its the weld properties/penetration etc that dictate if the weld will be likely to crack when given high temps and a mechanical load.

If the TIG weld has been done correctly the heat affected zone around the weld is actually stronger from a metallurgical aspect then the parent metal. So the only other thing is to make sure that the poor old 1.6mm thick stainless manifold does not have to support the weight of the turbo and exhaust when glowing red. This is easily fixed by using the std bracket off the gearbox near the cat so the manifold is no longer supporting the exhaust...and a bracket off the side of the head that supports the weight of the turbo. I still have been to lazy to do the bracket of the head, but will be something i do in the next 4 weeks before the next track day as i dont want to tempt fate too much:)

I have now done 30,000kms on my stainless manifold in wat is close to 2 years, and the past 10 months have once again been doing track work with it...no dramas so far...touch wood:)

Also giving the manifold a few minutes to come up to temperature and cool down, much like you do with your turbo also helps reduce the thermal shock the manifold has to endure.

That said they are pains in the ass to put some sort of shielding on, mine has been ceramic coated by competition coatings and wrapped up in thermal wrap and she still egts very toasty under the bonnet, next bey is to cut open the bonnet...this is the single major drawback which isnt easily got around...std manifolds with ceramic coating and std heat shields would be close to unbeatable for underbonnet temps:)

LOL...sorry about the long post

[Scooby]

Hi there John;

Also Sydneykid made a good point that I have been trying to explain in this and other threads about is better balance of flow from each runner and  improves power and motor would like it better over the long run and when pushing it hard which is what it is about.

no he didn't. what he wrote was...

Perhaps a better porting result would be achieved if the primaries were of equal volume, as this would give the same result as equal length. That is where flow testing of equal length primary pipes, as you would find in any decent stainless steel pipe manifold, won't show up their true advantage. Flow rate is not the only gain to be had from equal length primary pipes.

John you wrote:

unless there is a restriction further along the system then increasing the flow of a component which we KNOW it does from flow bench test then we know (sic)it will make more power.

Then there should be no problem proving this to us with a dyno run should there? But the question is also how much more. 2 kw or 20kw? Not going to spend my bucks on 2kw.

I would not expect anything like 10% more power by having even 15% more flow as for example standard turbo's will only pump so much although will do it easier, cooler and safer and maybe less boost.

it will? please prove it. 'expect' and 'maybe' are two words i don't like to hear when someone is trying to sell me something. as in 'here John, please but my marketing strategy, carefully designed with all of my experience, for $1000 because I expect it will improve your sales. maybe.' you wouldn't buy it so don't expect us to hand over our hard earned in the same circumstances.

John I don't see why you are avoiding the obvious challenge we are putting to you ie 'prove it is worth the money'. What I see is very reasonable and well considered questions, with people giving you the benefit of the doubt. And the more you fail to accept the challenge of proving the worth of these things the more sceptical people will become. You have a dyno in your office for heavens sake, what's the problem? And please don't give us that 'dyno runs cost money if we tested everything it would cost us so many $$$ etc' because that is the pain of R and D.

This forum has been going for long enough for me to know that:

people will ask the right questions

they will buy stuff that works

Show me the results and I'll show you the money.

Regards

[Boosted Zed]

Cool Roy althoguh yours may have small cracks and you don't know it . I hope they don't but seen this a lot as in no sin or knowlede of cracks then changing turbo's or somethign else and manifold comes off and get a good look and hair line cracks here and there. Not enough to make noise or feel but still cracked. I have seen plenty of nice Jap ones. I have never seen GTR stock exh manifolds crack although a few GTS-T being along log style type can. But then also seen plenty of staino GTS-T ones crack also and more often I think. This comes back to the tune and cooling down and how hard pushed etc.

[Roy]

John I don't see why you are avoiding the obvious challenge we are putting to you ie 'prove it is worth the money'. What I see is very reasonable and well considered questions, with people giving you the benefit of the doubt. And the more you fail to accept the challenge of proving the worth of these things the more sceptical people will become. You have a dyno in your office for heavens sake, what's the problem?  And please don't give us that 'dyno runs cost money if we tested everything it would cost us so many $$$ etc' because that is the pain of R and D.  

If you want to buy them , buy them. If he had of produced a dyno sheet instead of flow figures ppl would have been asking questions like ambient temps, the tune or boost level being run???. Sooner or later you have to weigh things up in your own mind and say "well i think this is a good spend" if you dont thing there is enough reassurance then maybe its not the mod for you:)

He has already offered to do a better price for someone willing to use their car...the guy is in business, and sure he is trying to sell something, but i think he has taken reasonable lenghts to test the product. I dont know...If it was an Apexi part ppl would be throwing it on their car with nothing other then a badge and a visual inspeciton to see if it looks right...so ?!?!?!?!?

:confused:

[Boosted Zed]

Hi there John;

no he didn't. what he wrote was...

Perhaps a better porting result would be achieved if the primaries were of equal volume, as this would give the same result as equal length. That is where flow testing of equal length primary pipes, as you would find in any decent stainless steel pipe manifold, won't show up their true advantage. Flow rate is not the only gain to be had from equal length primary pipes.

John you wrote:

unless there is a restriction further along the system then increasing the flow of a component which we KNOW it does from flow bench test then we know (sic)it will make more power.  

Then there should be no problem proving this to us with a dyno run should there? But the question is also how much more. 2 kw or 20kw? Not going to spend my bucks on 2kw.  

I would not expect anything like 10% more power by having even 15% more flow as for example standard turbo's will only pump so much although will do it easier, cooler and safer and maybe less boost.  

it will? please prove it. 'expect' and 'maybe' are two words i don't like to hear when someone is trying to sell me something. as in 'here John, please but my marketing strategy, carefully designed with all of my experience, for $1000 because I expect it will improve your sales. maybe.' you wouldn't buy it so don't expect us to hand over our hard earned in the same circumstances.    

John I don't see why you are avoiding the obvious challenge we are putting to you ie 'prove it is worth the money'. What I see is very reasonable and well considered questions, with people giving you the benefit of the doubt. And the more you fail to accept the challenge of proving the worth of these things the more sceptical people will become. You have a dyno in your office for heavens sake, what's the problem?  And please don't give us that 'dyno runs cost money if we tested everything it would cost us so many $$$ etc' because that is the pain of R and D.  

This forum has been going for long enough for me to know that:

people will ask the right questions

they will buy stuff that works

Show me the results and I'll show you the money.

Regards

No probs Scooby bring it on not avoiding it I was even asking for a candidate. I did now want to be taken out of context or shoe horned into predictions or promises, I am either not sure of or doubt will happen. As in when you mentioned 10% potential more power as I doubt if it would. For example if a GTR with N1 turbo's say was making 300rwkw and we did this mod it would not make 330rwkw in fact maybe only 5rwkw or more top end although could make more and not just top end but probably mid range too. But then neither will thousands spent on stainless Jap ones that are potentially going to crack sooner or later and radiate heat.

The things that you bolt on that make big power is turbo's, cams the rest do but no where near as much and support the turbo's etc. I would not suggest just doing this alone but rather something you would do when doing turbo's and dump pipes.

If you bolted things on to a motor and they were to make 10% more power which some items will but if everything did and accumulated a GTR would go from 200rwkw to 500rwkw before too long. Kind of like a particular Aussie car manufacture way back used to say new model uses 20% less fuel and 15% more power than previous model, bla bla bla. They seemed to do this at least every year. At one point I calculated that the 85 model ........ car must be nearing the speed of light and makes it's own fuel if you believed the propaganda..

[Beer Baron]

Kind of like a particular Aussie car manufacture way back used to say new model uses 20% less fuel and 15% more power than previous model, bla bla bla.  They seemed to do this at least every year.  At one point I calculated that the 85 model ........ car must be nearing the speed of light and makes it's own fuel if you believed the propaganda..

John, you crack me up.

[Cubes]

With regards to the rb20/25 items once they are done.

All in all for around $550 or maybe cheaper for the rb20/25 single log, would I rather buy a stock manifold that has been extrude honed, or one of those crappy stainless autobarn/gcg specials as the price points are around the same.

I know what my choice will be.

Besides the point, a good quality tuned length exh. manifold is worth 3 times the price of this extrude honed manifold.

It comes down to the old saying You get what you pay for.

There really is no comparison.

[lwells]

First off, can I say I really appreciate John taking the time to answer people's questions. Moreover, I think its great that a local business is trying to put out some innovative products and not just follow/copy like sheep. I sense some frustration in a couple of his posts because of the rather "rigorous" questioning in not just this thread, but the last few he has started (e.g. the plenum thread).

Although I think the tone of Scooby's posts was unnecessarily combative, I think that these questions are asked and answered means everyone is better informed at the end of the day.

I'm interested in the mention of stainless manifolds commonly cracking. My understanding -- as Roy explained far better than I ever could -- was that if the necessary care was taken, the welds should not crack and should in fact be stronger than the metal its joining. Thus is it mainly a question of poor quality welds, or is there some other more fundamental problem with s.s. manifolds?

Sydneykid: I assume that, given your propensity for such things, that you have probably thoroughly explored and researched exhaust manifolds for GT-Rs. What would you suggest is the best way to improve upon the stock low mounts? Are there low mount manifolds with equal length runners available?

As I said, I need to take my manifolds off everntually to stop a small leak (it closes as the manifolds/head heats, but it annoys me) so I will be watching this thread with interest. I'm tempted to offer my car up as a guinea pig, but since its such a pig of a job -- grrrr... already done it once in the past two months -- I'd want to change the dump and front pipes at the same time which would, I imagine, invalided the results in many people's eyes.

Lucien.

[Scooby]

Hi there Lucien,

Although I think the tone of Scooby's posts was unnecessarily combative, I think that these questions are asked and answered means everyone is better informed at the end of the day.

Combative? What the hell do you mean by that? LOL OK sorry if it came across that way, I know John has the wherewithall to give us the results we need.

John re:

No probs Scooby bring it on not avoiding it I was even asking for a candidate. I did now want to be taken out of context or shoe horned into predictions or promises, I am either not sure of or doubt will happen...I would not suggest just doing this alone but rather something you would do when doing turbo's and dump pipes.

I'll be your guinea pig. I intend to put N1s and dumps on my R32 and reburn the ecu very soon. And I understand the gain may not be in power but rather lower boost and temp etc which are results I'd be just as happy with. I'll pay for all of the work, as it would cost me to do that anyway. We just need to come to an arrangement on the cost of the extrude hone in terms of what they should achieve and what that's worth.

Are you up for it?

Regards

[lwells]

Hi there Lucien,  

Combative? What the hell do you mean by that? LOL OK sorry if it came across that way, I know John has the wherewithall to give us the results we need.

Its just the way it came across: sometimes that's the problem with the web. Its hard to guess people's tone, etc, plus people tend to use shorthand which introduces other problems.

Are you up for it?

Well there are two offers to be guinea cops

Lucien.

[TTT]

scooby.

you changing to N1's and N1 manifolds which you are going to have work done by john will not prove anything.

UNLESS, you put the N1's and their manifolds on, tune and get a dyno result.

then take them off, have them honed and put back on and back on the dyno.

I can't see how your example is going to be any use to others that want to know what these modified stock manifolds will do for $500 odd dollars.

I'm sure that someone will eventually do this.

there are plenty of skylines out there with bigger turbo's on stock manifolds.

it just needs one of them to go to UAS, go on their dyno, go to work shop, get modified manifolds on there, go back on dyno.

compare the results.

That will be the selling point.

I guess these manifolds will be pertty much a waste of money for those with stock rb20/25 turbo's anyway.

[Boosted Zed]

Yep sorry also if I came across hard I did not mean to be but yesterday I actually had two coffees, and played Gran Turismo all day then went home for little bit and then out the door to play a game of comp squash. After getting home around 11pm and was tired but excited and pumped after squash and just had a quick look on this forum and thought I should answer some of these weapon questions. Like why are you avoiding us and this and that and Ahhhahahah yipeee. Told the dog and the wife I would be coming to bed a bit later now. Yes I was a little frustrated with some of the questions and I realize it upsets some mind sets. Any who I refuse to go with the flow and accept Bling options unless they are good which there are many other products that work great and much better than factory or even modified factory items. Kind of like trying to go down to the beach this afternoon and trying to stop the waves coming in, changing some mind sets on some things. That is supposed to be more funny than anything else in case someone out there is pinging at work and reads this the wrong way. Beer Baron don't fall off your seat.

Maybe I should invest in some Bling Jap badges and double the price like some workshops I see charge heaps being half reputation and half for the actual work, he he. Some are mesmerized and just pay hey?

Yes scoobi do I am up for it what's it though?

Oh and for those thinking I am just pushing product well that facts are we pay $440 for the match porting and extrude honing with flow figures plus freight, and more time involved overall than many products we sell, so go figure and yes give SAU discount on them and take out a portion for overheads and make stuff all.

[Scooby]

scooby.

you changing to N1's and N1 manifolds which you are going to have work done by john will not prove anything.

UNLESS, you put the N1's and their manifolds on, tune and get a dyno result.

then take them off, have them honed and put back on and back on the dyno.

I can't see how your example is going to be any use to others that want to know what these modified stock manifolds will do for $500 odd dollars.

GTST;

Agreed. But I'm following John's lead with this 'I would not suggest just doing this alone but rather something you would do when doing turbo's and dump pipes' no doubt the exact method of testing would have to be negotiated and validated by the likes of (hopefully) SK.

John;

In answer to your question 'Yes scooby do I'm up for it but what's it though?', what I wrote was:

I'll be your guinea pig. I intend to put N1s and dumps on my R32 and reburn the ecu very soon. And I understand the gain (from the extrude hone process) may not be in power but rather lower boost and temp etc which are results I'd be just as happy with...Are you up for it?

The 10kw improvement figure was a hypothetical only, I don't attach anything firm to that nor use it as a benchmark of any sort.

Regards

[Sydneykid]

Sydneykid:  I assume that, given your propensity for such things, that you have probably thoroughly explored and researched exhaust manifolds for GT-Rs.  What would you suggest is the best way to improve upon the stock low mounts?  Are there low mount manifolds with equal length runners available?Lucien.

Hi Lucien, in a circuit racing environment we have to be the best we can within the regulations. So most of the stuff we do is for one purpose only, making the car go faster legally. Extruded honing is well known, I have been involved in Production Car racing for many years and we used to send our bits to the US for honing as there was no one in Australia doing it back then. It is effective when the component being honed is the weak link in the chain, but it is waste of time and money when there are other components negating the benefits (because they are the weak link in the chain).

As for equal length, the best exhaust manifold I have seen for RB20/25's is the GTSR Group A from Nissan. It is equal length, exceptionally well made and utilises the superior (for circuit racing) low/rear mount. A true work of art.

The set of (twin) equal length low mount manifolds we use on the race GTR was made by our race team fabricator as we had specific needs as required by the Improved Production regulations ie; turbo restrictors.