RB20DET Netherlands. Advice please!

[ivosp]

Hi guys,

I´m building the first rb20det powered 180sx here in the Netherlands and I could use some help. I have read many threads on this forum, but still have some questions. Maybe you guys could help...

Initial setup:

Stock internals

Greddy e-manage and profec e01 controller.

HKS gt2530 turbo (used, I think from a gtr).

Free flow turbo-back exhaust

Free flow intake, cold airbox

S14 viscodiff

Big FMIC

Octane 98 fuel

Walbro 255l/m pump

Ca18det injectors (345)

Adjustable fuel pressure regulator

Questions:

What kind of power could this produce? I have about 17% loss in the drivetrain.

What is the most affordable and streetable clutch on the market that could cope with this torque?

What kind of boost would be safe on stock internals?

What kind of fuel rail pressure would you guys recommend?

Do I need a separate aftermarket knock sensor and reader to tune my iginition?

Do you guys recommend a custom plenum?

It would be great if I could get some answers. Thanks!

Ivo

[ivosp]

Help?

[Roy]

Questions:

What kind of power could this produce? I have about 17% loss in the drivetrain.

Firstly a GTR turbo will not bolt onto a std RB20 manifold as they use a different flange. So you need to be sure that you have a T3 flanged 2530 (Its possible a turbo off a GTR may not make as much power...but best aska turbo guru to see if the trims/ wheels are the same between an RB20/25 single and GTR twin

What is the most affordable and streetable clutch on the market that could cope with this torque?

Clutches are pretty easy to suss. Thing is RB20 gearboxes arent renowned for their strength at higher then std hp. Mine i happily living at 234rwkws, after a fluid change...and i run an Xtreme puck clutch, usre to run a UAS GTR single palte cltuch byt after wore out and needed replacing so this is what i now have. Dont go for too grabby/grippy a clutch as it could hurt the gearbox on the those keen shifts.

What kind of boost would be safe on stock internals?

 

Im running up to 18psi, the tune, revs used and the water/oil temos ertc are just as important as the boost level you want to run. If you stick with a 6,800 - 7,000rpm rev limit then i personally would be comfortabel running 1.3bar provided the thing is tuend well. Beauty of the 2530 is it gived you lots of midrange so will not really have to ring its neck. With my slightly laggier/top end turbo i recentyl used 8,300rpm and 18psi at the track and all is well. Usually keep revs arounf the 7,600-7,800 though just not to hurt my std bottom end too much

What kind of fuel rail pressure would you guys recommend?

Std. Use the right sizre injectors and make sure you have a good reliable fuel pump ad you will be fine. I run a Bosch 040 with std GTR injectors and i dont go above 75% injector duty cycle

Do I need a separate aftermarket knock sensor and reader to tune my iginition?

What ECU are you looking at using. Depending on the local expertise then you can re-write the std ECU, though most ppl agree that the Apexi Power FC takes much of the pain out of aftermarket ecus, is reliable and give good results. Either way you wont need any aftermarket form of detecting detonation. The Power Fc uses the std Nissan sensors and gives a bar graph or unitless measure of detonation..or other aftermarket ECUs shoudl be tuend on a dyno with A/F meter etc to make sure that mixtures are ok and ausdibly there is no detonation

Do you guys recommend a custom plenum?

Back in the late 80s Grp A Nissan R31 GTS-R race cars used the same basic inlet manifold. They use to run around 420bhp...so whilst anything can be improved upon, i woudnt be too concerned. Just make sure all you cooler piping is neat and the correct diameter adn you should be fine

[ivosp]

Roy, thank you very very much for you answers! I respect the aussies a lot for the extended knowledge on these engines!

Firstly a GTR turbo will not bolt onto a std RB20 manifold as they use a different flange.  So you need to be sure that you have a T3 flanged 2530 (Its possible a turbo off a GTR may not make as much power...but best aska  turbo guru to see if the trims/ wheels are the same between an RB20/25 single and GTR twin

O ok. I should be ok using an adapter, right? Here are som pics of the tubby:

Look at number 6 for sizes please.

Does somebody know the difference in output between the different 2530´s?

Clutches are pretty easy to suss.  Thing is RB20 gearboxes arent renowned for their strength at higher then std hp. Mine i happily living at 234rwkws, after a fluid change...and i run an Xtreme puck clutch, usre to run a UAS GTR single palte cltuch byt after wore out and needed replacing so this is what i now have.   Dont go for too grabby/grippy a clutch as it could hurt the gearbox on the those keen shifts.

The gearbox seems comparible with the ca18det gearbox. It should handle 350pk at the crankshaft without too much hassle if in good order. Do you think it would break with my setup?

You say, dont go with grabby clutches, but I dont know wich ones are not. Could you name some brands and models maybe? Or some webshops I could visit?

Im running up to 18psi, the tune, revs used and the water/oil temos ertc are just as important as the boost level you want to run.  If you stick with a 6,800 - 7,000rpm rev limit then i personally would be comfortabel running 1.3bar provided the thing is tuend well. Beauty of the 2530 is it gived you lots of midrange so will not really have to ring its neck. With my slightly laggier/top end turbo i recentyl used 8,300rpm and 18psi at the track and all is well. Usually keep revs arounf the 7,600-7,800 though just not to hurt my std bottom end too much

WHat kind of water en oil temperatures do you recommend? Do I need an aftermarket equipment? I use castroll 10w60 rs, should this be ok?

Std. Use the right sizre injectors and make sure you have a good reliable fuel pump ad you will be fine. I run a Bosch 040 with std GTR injectors and i dont go above 75% injector duty cycle

I dont see why. I have made engines with good results using higher fuel pressures. It even makes the enginer more lively. Why should I stick to big injectors? Is there a specific reason on the skyline engines for not using high pressure?

What ECU are you looking at using. Depending on the local expertise then you can re-write the std ECU, though most ppl agree that the Apexi Power FC takes much of the pain out of aftermarket ecus, is reliable and give good results. Either way you wont need any aftermarket form of detecting detonation. The Power Fc uses the std Nissan sensors and gives a bar graph or unitless measure of detonation..or other aftermarket ECUs shoudl be tuend on a dyno with A/F  meter etc to make sure that mixtures are ok and ausdibly there is no detonation

Well I have not really decied, this is why:

Greddy e manage with profec controller and all harnasses has a nice big screen, It lets me use the retarding anti knock function of the stock ecu. It costs half of the power fc. DOes it show detonation?

Apexi power fc is easier to install I think. I is able to handle more power since it is a standalone but I dont think I need that with this setup. And its able to show detonation, but it wont retard when this happens. It also has adjustable rev limit.

I use motec A/F reading equipment.

Back in the late 80s Grp A Nissan  R31 GTS-R race cars used the same basic inlet manifold.  They use to run around 420bhp...so whilst anything can be improved upon, i woudnt be too concerned. Just make sure all you cooler piping is neat and the correct diameter adn you should be fine

Wont´t it make cilinders 1 and 6 go lean?

[Roy]

Firstly, let me just say sorry about the typos:) ...and state this is only my opinion, there are many ways to skin a cat:)

The pictures arent working, so cant really say. If you do a search around the net im sure you will be able to find a template/sizing of the T3 flange.

As for power it will make, ppl on std RB20s running T3 2530 seem to make between 200-230rwkws running up to 1.4bar.

The gearbox seems comparible with the ca18det gearbox. It should handle 350pk at the crankshaft without too much hassle if in good order. Do you think it would break with my setup?

You say, dont go with grabby clutches, but I dont know wich ones are not. Could you name some brands and models maybe? Or some webshops I could visit?

Like i said im making 234rwkws and my car runs 114mph on the quarter mile, so whilst not having big power, its reasonable. And my gearbox to date is fine after a fluid change. It has started to get a bit of a straight cut gear sound in 1st gear:) But it still shifts fine etc, and the drain plug is clean when i checked it last so, dont miss gears, stick with a good fluid (a Search in Maintenance shows the fluid ppl like to use) and run a single plate clutch like the one from www.nismo.com.au or http://www.xtremeclutch.com.au/products.htm#

WHat kind of water en oil temperatures do you recommend? Do I need an aftermarket equipment? I use castroll 10w60 rs, should this be ok?

As low as possible:) When giving it stick at the track, i normally get gunshy about 95 water temp, and with oil temp its a matter of i back off when my water temp gets too high. I run a 19 row oil cooler but it isnt installed in its most optimum position and doesnt get a good supply of air. I dont run a water cooled turbo which i suspect isnt doing my oil temps and favours.

I run the Castrol Formula R 10w60 as well. Use to run Mobil 1 but is too hard to get in the viscosity i like, Castrol is much more readily available, though i have a small suspicion that it isnt as stable at high temps...but that is only based on propoganda i have read, not from running back to back with oil temp gauges.

So depending on what sort of driving you will doing with the car, then i would say keep the temps as low as possible.

I dont see why. I have made engines with good results using higher fuel pressures. It even makes the enginer more lively. Why should I stick to big injectors? Is there a specific reason on the skyline engines for not using high pressure?

I dont know, just a preference. If you buy injectors then you have a solution that should you want more power bigger turbo will still worketc. Everyone uses fuel regs so they do work, i would just rather throw that money at injectors which do the job with more headroom.

And i should say im very paranoid. My car is 13 years old and is pretty orginal. The combination of Bosch 040 fuel pump and bigger injectors at std rail pressure doent scare me a lot. Increased rail pressure means more pressure for my crappy Nissan hose clamps to hold, old rubber fuel lines to hold etc etc. Thats about the main reason why i like injectors over fuel regs... but yeh fuel reg is fine if your happy with it

Well I have not really decied, this is why:

Greddy e manage with profec controller and all harnasses has a nice big screen, It lets me use the retarding anti knock function of the stock ecu. It costs half of the power fc. DOes it show detonation?

Apexi power fc is easier to install I think. I is able to handle more power since it is a standalone but I dont think I need that with this setup. And its able to show detonation, but it wont retard when this happens. It also has adjustable rev limit.

I would go straight to the PFc, it is too flexible, cheap and easy to install, even sell should you part with the car. The Emanage is a piggy back computer, and Pfc stand alone.

Everyone gets caught up in knock protection etc etc. I was waffling on about it once and a friend needed to remind me the most complicated computer in the car is between the ears of the driver. So if the thing is tuned well, then i know that once i have had my cars tuned correctly, there has never been a reason to fiddle, or chase detonation issues. The PFC will indicate detonation / mechancial noise in the engineby flashing the engine light.

Outside of that sooner or later you have to decide what level of comfort you need, PFC is fine for me...i would love a more high end computer that monitors everything under the sun and changes rev limits ignition etc , basically limp modes but for what i do with the car its a waste of time. I would need to pop 3 or 4 engines before the cost of the ECU makes the whole exercise cheaper:(

Wont´t it make cilinders 1 and 6 go lean?

This is another one where everyone has an opinion:) What would make a cylinder run leaner is more air for said amount of fuel. So looking at the inlet manifold you would think thats going to be cylinders 3 & 4. Also cylinder No. 6 runs the hottest, furthest away from radiator etc etc so probably runs a little bit hotter meaning cylinder/combustion chamber temps may mean detonation a little earlier then other cylinders.

So not sure about cylinders 1 & 6 running lean. Sure the engines move a lot of air, but with a turbo engine forcing air into cylinders i dont think it is such an issue, unlike an NA engine. With the volume of the plenum and the change in velocity of the air as it passes thru the throttle body and into the plenum, well i dont think its like a high pressure garden hose effect jamming air into the middle cylinders only.

Also the firing order of the engine means the acoustics of the plenum cant be easily estimated with inlet valves opening, throttle bodies wide open, half throttle etc etc.

The fact that its good enough for the R31 RB20DET race cars is fine by me, and when i look at some high end 6 cylinder cars, namely M3 it doesnt use a front facing plenum like ppl always want to run,. I cant recall who made the point but with a front facing plenum you have awide range of distances from throttle body to inlet valves. With where Nissan have located the throttle body then its ,much more even, still nto perfect but closer to the ideal setup of individual throttle bodies per cylinder with even spacing between inelt valves and throttle butterflys...like i said everyone has a different opinion on this one:)

[ivosp]

Firstly, let me just say sorry about the typos:)  ...and  state this is only my opinion, there are many ways to skin a cat:)

You´re opinion is really apreciated, mate! And I´m the bigger typo-maker

The pictures arent working, so cant really say. If you do a search around the net im sure you will be able to find a template/sizing of the T3 flange.

As for power it will make, ppl on std RB20s running T3 2530 seem to make between 200-230rwkws running up to 1.4bar.

Well it seems to be a gtr tubby. What consequences does this have for fitment and performance you think?

Like i said im making 234rwkws and my car runs 114mph on the quarter mile, so whilst not having big power, its reasonable.  And my gearbox to date is fine after a fluid change. It has started to get a bit of a straight cut gear sound in 1st gear:)  But it still shifts fine etc, and the drain plug is clean when i checked it last so, dont miss gears, stick with a good fluid (a Search in Maintenance shows the fluid ppl like to use) and run a single plate clutch like the one from www.nismo.com.au or http://www.xtremeclutch.com.au/products.htm#

Thanks. I have absolutely not a clue on wich one I should buy of those. Can you recommend a certain type and seller? I just want the cheapest able to do the job right.

As low as possible:) When giving it stick at the track, i normally get gunshy about 95 water temp, and with oil temp its a matter of i back off when my water temp gets too high.  I run a 19 row oil cooler but it isnt installed in its most optimum position and doesnt get a good supply of air.  I dont run a water cooled turbo which i suspect isnt doing my oil temps and favours.

I run the Castrol Formula R 10w60 as well. Use to run Mobil 1 but is too hard to get in the viscosity i like, Castrol is much more readily available, though i have a small suspicion that it isnt as stable at high temps...but that is only based on propoganda i have read, not from running back to back with oil temp gauges.  

So depending on what sort of driving you will doing with the car, then i would say keep the temps as low as possible.

Do I really need an aftermartket oil cooler?

I dont know, just a preference.  If you buy injectors then you have a solution that should you want more power bigger turbo will still worketc.  Everyone uses fuel regs so they do work, i would just rather throw that money at injectors which do the job with more headroom.  

And i should say im very paranoid. My car is 13 years old and is pretty orginal. The combination of Bosch 040 fuel pump and bigger injectors at std rail pressure doent scare me a lot. Increased rail pressure means more pressure for my crappy Nissan hose clamps to hold, old rubber fuel lines to hold etc etc.  Thats about the main reason why i like injectors over fuel regs... but yeh fuel reg is fine if your happy with it

Ok, thats a good reason. I have 345cc ca18det injectors. Shoud they be able to do the job without using an fpr? What is the easiest way to get/make an resistor pack for these babies?

I would go straight to the PFc, it is too flexible, cheap and easy to install, even sell should you part with the car.  The Emanage is a piggy back computer, and Pfc stand alone.

Everyone gets caught up in knock protection etc etc. I was waffling on about it once and a friend needed to remind me the most complicated computer in the car is between the ears of the driver.  So if the thing is tuned well, then i know that once i have had my cars tuned correctly, there has never been a reason to fiddle, or chase detonation issues.  The PFC will indicate detonation / mechancial noise in the engineby flashing the engine light.  

Outside of that sooner or later you have to decide what level of comfort you need, PFC is fine for me...i would love a more high end computer that monitors everything under the sun and changes rev limits ignition etc , basically limp modes but for what i do with the car its a waste of time. I would need to pop 3 or 4 engines before the cost of the ECU makes the whole exercise cheaper:(

But the pfc ables you to shoose a rev limit right? And it gets rid of the speed limit and shows knock while the e-manage doenst show knock. Mzz makes me doubt even more.

This is another one where everyone has an opinion:) What would make a cylinder run leaner is more air for said amount of fuel. So looking at the inlet manifold you would think thats going to be cylinders 3 & 4.  Also cylinder No. 6 runs the hottest, furthest away from radiator etc etc so probably runs a little bit hotter meaning cylinder/combustion chamber temps may mean detonation a little earlier then other cylinders.  

So not sure about cylinders 1 & 6 running lean.  Sure the engines move a lot of air, but with a turbo engine forcing air into cylinders i dont think it is such an issue, unlike an NA engine.  With the volume of the plenum and the change in velocity of the air as it passes thru the throttle body and into the plenum, well i dont think its like a high pressure garden hose effect jamming air into the middle cylinders only.

Also the firing order of the engine means the acoustics of the plenum cant be easily estimated with inlet valves opening, throttle bodies wide open, half throttle etc etc.  

The fact that its good enough for the R31 RB20DET race cars is fine by me, and when i look at some high end 6 cylinder cars, namely M3 it doesnt use a front facing plenum like ppl always want to run,. I cant recall who made the point but with a front facing plenum you have awide range of distances from throttle body to inlet valves. With where Nissan have located the throttle body then its ,much more even, still nto perfect but closer to the ideal setup of individual throttle bodies per cylinder with even spacing between inelt valves and throttle butterflys...like i said everyone has a different opinion on this one:)

Ok, I´ll just stick to the original then. Too bad it makes the intercooler piping a hell of a lot longer...