RB Racing_Turbine & TurboX

[Turbine]

It's about time for a thread where we seriously chat about our RB20 race engine. A place to exchange information on the pros and cons of our ways of extracking maximum power and torque from the little 2.0L.

With having chatted to some of you guys in different threads about our initial setup and future plans, I thought this could be a central place for us serious 'Petrol Heads' willing to exchange some ideas on pushing the RB20 beyond what the average joe blow thinks it's limits are.

I'll start with a little info on the platform.

The car is an EX Super Gas drag racer, previously owned buy a guy in Queensland who raced this car for 7 or more years between 1990 and 199X. Powered by a turbo charged 284CI Chrysler Hemi 6 cylinder, backed by a Torqueflight auto, this was a consistant 10.50@128MPH car in very primitive trim let me tell you. No injection, basic manifolding, no intercooling with 9 PSI boost.

Our first goal with the new engine and gearbox setup is to run into the 10sec bracket with the RB20 engine backed by a 3 speed Jatco trans.

Rather than go down the line of compromise, I'd rather get everyone to think radical, a more engineering or scientific train of thought.

We will post up all the tricks and modifications that we have done, exchange comments on miths and old wifes tales of what we've all seen and heard of people attempting on their own engines to see if we can come up with a combination that will embarass the big block fanatics.

This is a very new project to us both, but given our experience, we think the little RB20 has got the goods. Check out our web site for our previous machines.

http://www.turboclub.com/

http://www.turboclub.com/Australia/Members/AU0000005/

http://www.skylinesaustralia.com/photopost...00&ppuser=19114

These are the links to our progress on the nissan powered beast. We'll update these sites with every trick, mod that we put into it.

So it's on, the space to race is here, lets show that the RB20 engine can pull the numbers that people never thought possible.

RB Racing

[R31 POWER]

Good idea and I'll add info on a RB20 build up once I get it.

Turbine what have you done to the 20yet?

[Roy]

What class will the car be running, so we can get an idea of what the class allows, does not allow. Me thinks a std RB20, with a 3 spd auto would love a hit of NOS, 7,600rpm rev limit and a turbo like that you are running which is about a 500-550hp turbo.

What fuel are you allowed to run, as i have an NA head that will allow you to get a good whack of compression to go with the big turbo, which combined with a race fuel may produce the goods.

LOL...this will be a good thread for the RB20 die hards...but be good to know the ground rules before we get to carried away:)

PS remind Greg abou the SAU-Vic dinner/meeting on the 19th:)

[TurboX]

Good idea and I'll add info on a RB20 build up once I get it.

Turbine what have you done to the 20yet?

Look forward to your input.. as to the mods... a bit embarrasing but NOT MUCH!

Its an RB20DE+T in stock spec. A $200 EKW Special bought as a spare for my GTS4 just in case I needed bits for my HR32RB20DET buildup.

Turbo custom built to our specs by ATP Advanced Turbo Performance with a additional wastegate extension off the exducer housing leading to a stainless aircraft sourced gate valve that will be driven by boost and electric solenoid to by pass all the exhaust gasses except what we need to make our boost target. :werd:

This is yet to be determined as we are running the std NA DOHC head at the moment and wont allow much but we will see what the Autronic can do to help.

We do have a steel HKS 3mm Gasket to go on sometime soon but not yet.

We have fitted my original GTS4 DET Exhaust Manifold so the turbo bolts up in the normal position but this will be replaced also along the way to see what measurable difference can be achieved.

The dump from the turbo and the wastegate will only be a foot or so long and no silencing at all and straight out the drivers side guard as we want to make as much noise as possible! (LHD as proper race car!)

The Intercooler will be an AIR/LIQUID setup with the original GTS4 Skyline I/C used as the boost air cooler and my old Starion FMIC used as the water cooler mounted in place of the original racecar radiator with a electric fan. The radiator and electric fan for the RB20 is out of my Starion and mounted in the tray over the back wheels and plumbed forward to the motor.

Most initial expence and development is in the trans, high stall converter and transbrake. The turbo was the next most expensive part but we have not spent over ten grand in total yet! (Pro setup Drag car included)

The bolt ons will increase till we break the bottom end then we will continue to build the rb20 up till we can go no further in power output.

The RB30 and RB25 head we have on standby will come later on....

For now we just want to get the car on the track and make some passes to see how it tracks down the strip and gets off the line.

Anyone want to guess what our first 1/8th mile and 1/4 mile pass will be :confused:

[TurboX]

PS remind Greg abou the SAU-Vic dinner/meeting on the 19th:)

Thanks Roy - had forgotten again!! Wont complain if you ring me?

Bye the way -go to bed its too damn late!

[R31Nismoid]

how heavy is the whole package?

[GTRgeoff]

20's? Meh!!!

Just subscribing to listen in. Interested in the drag beast, and when it dies be sure to report in the broken engine thread

[Turbine]

Ok, so far what we have done apart from what TurboX has explained.

Basically stock standard RB20DE engine with a 500- 550HP turbocharger fitted. Run by an Autronic SMC engine management system.

760cc/min injectors with a 700HP fuel pump.

Intercooling is through a liquid/Air cooler using a modified, standard GTS4 Skyline IC, also an Air/Air cooler to drag the heat out of the water. I'll have some pics of these pretty soon.

For the moment, the standard size throttle body, cylinder head assembly, intake manifold and standard RB20DET exhaust manifold will be used. Both manifolds have provision for temperature and pressure sense ports. We want to individually check the temps at each cylinder under load.

Gear box as you know is a 3 speed Jatco trans. Has a 7" 5000RPM stall speed torque converter hooked up to a trans-braked fully manualized valve body. Internally has carbon fibre (not kevlar)clutch and band material, with modified planetary gears and tripple the amount of oil flow throughout. I'm using an airconditioning condensor as a cooler. It's huge.

Rear end is a Ford 9" with either 4.11:1, 4.44:1 or 4.7:1 ratios. Minispooled 31 spline axles on 30"X13.5"X15" rear slicks.

Thats pretty much how the setup will be initially (but not for long ), so what do we expect to run over the 1/4 and 1/8th mile? Previously the car made 411rwhp to push it into 10's. I thingk the nissan engine is lighter than the big hemi6, that should give you an idea of how much hp is needed to run 10's.

As you can tell it's pretty unrestricted what we can do. The only real factor to slow us down is the weight brake for a couple of classes. Super Stock Eliminator and/or Super Gas limit you to 8kilo/cubic inch, which puts the weight just under 1000kilo's. Thats at a guess.

Ok, enough of that lets get back to boost mode.

20 psig or 34psia is going to be the initial boost setting, with the intake temperture set to cylinder head water temp minus 15*C. What do you think guys??

Turbine

[CEF11E]

one of your major problems will be getting the power out of the engine at less than 8000 rpm. anything higher and the non solid lifters will give up after time.

so you will need massive cams. and as much porting you can do before getting into the water jackets. also a custom plenum and big throttle body. but I am sure you know all this already.

are you going to use water/methanol injection and ice in the water to ait intercooler?

making it strong wont be all that hard there are always bits for that. just getting enough air thru the rb20 head is going to be your biggest challenge.

very interested with your progress i will be following this threafd also.

[Turbine]

Hello CEF11E welcome.

The RPM limit will be set to 8500RPM. I believe the rotating assembly will handle it, and we will just spring the valves heavier to seat them. The lifters... well, solid is ideal and I have to look at modifying them if I want to spin this to our eventual goal of 10,000RPM.

No ice will be used to cool the air. The intake air must be just short of the actual water temp that leaves the cylinder head into the radiator. If it's cooler, HP will drop, the air becomes heavier and slows down too much before it reaches the combustion chamber. The air has to be light enough and still dense enough for max power. It's somewhere around 60 - 80 degrees C, no more no less.

:werd:

With the porting, bigger is not always better. It will benifit from some porting but it will be the RPM that gets the flow up with an airspeed to match.

[Chris32]

Interesting, congrats for thinking outside the square on your project!

Keen to see what comes of this.

First thing I would be doing is getting hold of some sort of solid lifter conversion kit. I know of a RB25 which had GTR lifters/spings and cams put in, so it shouldn't be a problem. I reckon if you get rid of the hydraulic cam acuation, there is no reason that 9,000rpm couldn't be dragged out of the poor 'ol 20 Power = torque x rpm, so with that turbo setup, you should be able to nudge 300rwkw if you can keep it from dropping power up top

If I had the cash, I'd do a solid lifter conversion on my car, as I reckon the standard hydraulic lifters are in part to blame in the quest for power after 6000rpm in a RB20

[MattSR]

Turbine - It could be useful to measure your backpressure vs boost - this will tell you how well your turbo is matched to the engine

[Turbine]

Interesting, congrats for thinking outside the square on your project!

Keen to see what comes of this.  

First thing I would be doing is getting hold of some sort of solid lifter conversion kit. I know of a RB25 which had GTR lifters/spings and cams put in, so it shouldn't be a problem. I reckon if you get rid of the hydraulic cam acuation, there is no reason that 9,000rpm couldn't be dragged out of the poor 'ol 20 Power = torque x rpm, so with that turbo setup, you should be able to nudge 300rwkw if you can keep it from dropping power up top

If I had the cash, I'd do a solid lifter conversion on my car, as I reckon the standard hydraulic lifters are in part to blame in the quest for power after 6000rpm  in a RB20

Nice one Chris32, the way we will keep it from dropping power up top is with that mod to the turbine housing of the turbo. 'Get the air out' as best we can.

For the lifters, I still have to work on a solid setup on the cheap. I want to find a setup that all you guys can benifit from. Give it a bit of time, I'll find it.

[Turbine]

Turbine - It could be useful to measure your backpressure vs boost - this will tell you how well your turbo is matched to the engine

MattSR, We have provision to measure exhaust manifold pressure on the standard RB20DET manifold. The eventual goal is to have for evey 1 PSI on the inlet___0.5 PSI on the exhaust. If we cant do that then its like pushin you know what up hill.

Turbine

[rob82]

Are you going to use an antilag setup with the autronic? If the turbo isn't too large you will get positive boost of the line. Also what are you talking about the inlet air temperature, the lower the better. Are you running pump fuel, c16?

[CEF11E]

Are you going to use an antilag setup with the autronic?  If the turbo isn't too large you will get positive boost of the line.  Also what are you talking about the inlet air temperature, the lower the better.  Are you running pump fuel, c16?

yep the cooler the better, however i know what he means. As air is cooled it increases oxygen density but also decreases the space it occupies. these things are both good, however if you agressivley cool air in from 100deg to 20deg the volume it takes up decreases too much and can slow down velocity going into the engine and also causes turbulance. thus decreasing the volume of air into the engine.

I didnt belive this untill I saw a drag car do back to back runs.

run 1 with a water to air intercooler with -20 deg coolant (metho frozen) and run 2 with ambient coolant.

I cant remember what the time difference was but the ET was .5 of a second better with the ambient coolant.

I am only going off what i have seen and been told so if i am incorrect dont flame me too hard

[CEF11E]

Also have you considered chemical induction like nitrous or other oxygen rich gasses?

I have heard about people with 5lt bottles of 50/50 oxygen/nitrogen being injected into turbocharged engines!!!

sounds extremly dangerous to me tho

[Turbine]

Are you going to use an antilag setup with the autronic?  If the turbo isn't too large you will get positive boost of the line.  Also what are you talking about the inlet air temperature, the lower the better.  Are you running pump fuel, c16?

Hey rob,

We can use anti-lag if we need it, the Autronic has that option. About the air temp.. I mean the air that reaches the cylinder head, that temp must be 60 - 80 *C.

High powered turbo engines need good coolers, but the ideal temp at the head or valve is 60 - 80 *C. C16 is the only fuel we will run.

[Turbine]

yep the cooler the better, however i know what he means. As air is cooled it increases oxygen density but also decreases the space it occupies. these things are both good, however if you agressivley cool air in from 100deg to 20deg the volume it takes up decreases too much and can slow down velocity going into the engine and also causes turbulance. thus decreasing the volume of air into the engine.

I didnt belive this untill I saw a drag car do back to back runs.  

run 1 with a water to air intercooler with -20 deg coolant (metho frozen) and run 2 with ambient coolant.

I cant remember what the time difference was but the ET was .5 of a second better with the ambient coolant.

I am only going off what i have seen and been told so if i am incorrect dont flame me too hard

You have seen the secret in action CEF11E. Their is a little more to the reason why it works best, but its something to think about.

Applying this to the lil RB20 going to spread it's wings just that little more

[Roy]

Just having a think about boost control...you mentioned you will be using a gate valve with solenoid control...will a gate valve offer the response required to control boost. Or is the description of 'gate valve' not what i typically see in the engineering world as a gate valve