R32 Gtr Club/circuit Susp. Recommendations

[BBGTR]

Suggestions follow;

1. I wouldn't recommend anything bigger than 2530's on a circuit GTR 2.6 litre.  And I am not alone, almost all the fast Jap workshop GTR's use 2530's on the circuit.

2. Most likely pads overheating, good quality rotors work fine up to 1400 degrees.

3. Backing plates have to go, both front and rear.  They are only usefull on road cars that see a lot of broken surfaces, they help stop small rocks and stones getting caught between the rotor and the calliper.  Plus help retain a bit of heat when driving on the freeeway or in the rain. Removing them makes a huge difference in reducing the trapped heat, do it NOW.

4. Stabiliser bars are the FIRST suspension mod I do on any car, then alignment (camber & caster) then shocks, springs are last on my list.  Quite often I don't do springs at all on road cars, just makes the ride rough and doesn't help the handling one bit.  Stabiliser bar upgrades are the single best bang for buck upgrade you can do.

cheers

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Hi

I'm moving from a fairly quick STi to a R32 and need some help on track geometry settings.

On my Sti I ran:

Front: 3.7 neg camber 6.6mm total toe out and 4.5deg castor

Rear: 3.5 neg camber 3mm total toe out.

That was what I found to be an ideal setup for Dunlop DZ02G R-Spec tyres on that car.

I'm setting my R32 up with RE55 265/35/18 track tyres with the biggest brakes I can fit under the rims.

Car already has Bilstien shocks with reasonable springs of an unknown rating together with sway bars.

Any help on geometry would be appreciated.

Regards

Andrew

[Duncan]

Holy sh1t that is a lot of camber! how was it under brakes?

I would have thought camber more like 2.5o and 1.5 - 2.0 in the rear is better, nice big sway bars, adjustable caster as much as you can get (around 4.5o from bushes)

0 toe out at the rear otherwies it will get really taily. Maybe even 1 in.

6.6mm toe out also sounds amazingly high even on the race car we only run 3mm out total.

And you need an ATESSA controller to keep the tailiness under control the 32 system is pretty old school by now

You probably want to remove the HICAS as well if you push the car pretty hard.

Are the settings you had common in WRX land? They seem *really* extreme? What sort of lap times did you do where?

[BBGTR]

Holy sh1t that is a lot of camber! how was it under brakes?

I would have thought camber more like 2.5o and 1.5 - 2.0 in the rear is better, nice big sway bars, adjustable caster as much as you can get (around 4.5o from bushes) 

0 toe out at the rear otherwies it will get really taily.  Maybe even 1 in.

6.6mm toe out also sounds amazingly high even on the race car we only run 3mm out total.

And you need an ATESSA controller to keep the tailiness under control the 32 system is pretty old school by now

You probably want to remove the HICAS as well if you push the car pretty hard.

Are the settings you had common in WRX land? They seem *really* extreme?  What sort of lap times did you do where?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

This was an "open class" car so it was definitely out there in terms of setup.

The geometry worked well on the Sti, very straight under brakes and even tyre wear. Car did 1.36.28 around Winton, 1.04.76 around calder, 24's around Sandown.

WRX's understeer like a bitch with a 50:50 torque split so a bit of toe out helps turn in. I was running 24mm rear bar and 22mm front.

Thanks for the help. I'll give those settings a shot and see what happens.

Regards

Andrew

[Snowman]

Andrew,

You've joined our ranks under pretty sad circumstances but welcome anyways.

Are we going to see you next round at Winton or are you waiting for Benno to do what ever he is doing first?

For reference I'm running 3deg front camber and standard rear camber. No toe adjustments yet but is something I'm keen to look at soon as my car is a handfull to try and drive straight on the roads.

No sway bars but running Ohlin suspension with King Springs. When I was running the Tein HA's swaybars would certainly have helped. But the Ohlins have balanced the car right out now. Scotsman is running the Tein Flex (upgraded springs) with whileline sway bars with a similar camber/toe set-up to me and his car is almost too easy to steer. Tyre wear is nice and even too.

Out of interest - what rims are you using? It's just something to consider when thinking for big brake upgrades. Benno runs the Harrop 382mm front rotors - uses Rays TE37 rims. He recently purchased some Rays CE28n's only to discover they dont fit over the Harrops.

Same with Panozza - he had the Rays LMGT1 rims but recently purchased some Works Emotion rims with the intention of getting the same Harrops as Benno - but the Works rims will only fit a 355mm rotor. So now he's having to sell the Works and find some TE37's.

[BBGTR]

Andrew,

You've joined our ranks under pretty sad circumstances but welcome anyways.

Are we going to see you next round at Winton or are you waiting for Benno to do what ever he is doing first?

For reference I'm running 3deg front camber and standard rear camber. No toe adjustments yet but is something I'm keen to look at soon as my car is a handfull to try and drive straight on the roads.

No sway bars but running Ohlin suspension with King Springs. When I was running the Tein HA's swaybars would certainly have helped. But the Ohlins have balanced the car right out now. Scotsman is running the Tein Flex (upgraded springs) with whileline sway bars with a similar camber/toe set-up to me and his car is almost too easy to steer. Tyre wear is nice and even too.

Out of interest - what rims are you using? It's just something to consider when thinking for big brake upgrades. Benno runs the Harrop 382mm front rotors - uses Rays TE37 rims. He recently purchased some Rays CE28n's only to discover they dont fit over the Harrops.

Same with Panozza - he had the Rays LMGT1 rims but recently purchased some Works Emotion rims with the intention of getting the same Harrops as Benno - but the Works rims will only fit a 355mm rotor. So now he's having to sell the Works and find some TE37's.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

G'day Snowman,

My car still has the standard ceramic turbos so I'm not to keen to run them on the track in case they let go. I've got an email with Benno to book me in but god only knows when that will be I'll be up at Winton but it will a last minute decision whether I'll race at all.

I'm looking for some TE37's at the moment (I have a note on the GTR Wheel package thread on these forums). I have some Stern 18*9's with a 24 mm offset at the moment and they seem to fill the R32 guards out as far as possible. The 18*9.5's with +22mm offset in the TE37's are the only ones I can find that come close and they will be 8mm more track so it will be a tight fit.

The Stern's are three piece rims so the caliper clearance is not great. I was going to transplant my CSC brakes to the GT-R however the calipers are a bit different. I will probably look at some AP's with 355mm rotors, but I'll get Howard Reynolds at race brakes to test fit a couple of sizes with my road wheels.

Thanks for the geometry settings. I'm tipping a few spins first time out for me until I get used to the RWD bais.

Are there any gun suspension guys out there that are used to set these heavy dungers up? I know of Ralph at Tru Track and Nathan at Advantage Suspension.

Experience has taught me to throw as much as I can at tyres, brakes and suspension and leave the engine relatively mild to have a reliable fun track car.

Cheers

Andrew

[Snowman]

Benno does all of our set-ups.

If it's for the track Benno will do it as good as anyone down here. For example he has my car right now which he just takes for spins on his "test track" and tinkers with it all getting settings just right.

The GT-R's can be fickle to set-up right as ride heights - including front to rear differences can have significant impact on the effectiveness of the Attessa system.

As Duncan mentioned for the R32's looking at one of the Attessa controllers would be a good benifit as well. Will certainly help reduce the taily nature of the car.

For the brakes you'll find Howard will probably recommend the 365mm AP 6 pot upgrade (same as Frank has). I'm running the same calipers with 375mm rotors. But the 365mm upgrade is the "standard" one and has everything ready for straight bolt in. And despite what anyone may try and tell you - the big front brake upgrade makes a HUGE difference. I found the standard brake set-up to be a bit rear biased and at places like turn 1 Sandown the rear of the car really wanted to come around - but after the AP upgrade it's so much more balanced under brakes and you can be so much more aggressive.

For rims - the other one to look at maybe is the R34 GT-R rims. I have a set of them at home (which you can't have!) if you wanted to physically test them out if they become an option for you. Russel (giant) from QLD has them on his monster R32 that cleaned up us all at Dutton (is running the AP's as well). They did some nice 1.33's at Winton which is impressive given they never had been there before and only got 2 laps in which to set that time!

[Sydneykid]

despite what anyone may try and tell you - the big front brake upgrade makes a HUGE difference. I found the standard brake set-up to be a bit rear biased and at places like turn 1 Sandown the rear of the car really wanted to come around - but after the AP upgrade it's so much more balanced under brakes and you can be so much more aggressive

Since I am one of the "anyone", is this a good place to discuss this subject?

Let's assume it is, and see what happens.

Did you get any other advantage other than more front brake bias, which a $50 proportioning valve would have accomplished? Or even cheaper, machining off some of the rear pad to reduce its surface area? Or using a lower CoF rear pad?

cheers

[BBGTR]

Benno does all of our set-ups.

If it's for the track Benno will do it as good as anyone down here. For example he has my car right now which he just takes for spins on his "test track" and tinkers with it all getting settings just right.

The GT-R's can be fickle to set-up right as ride heights - including front to rear differences can have significant impact on the effectiveness of the Attessa system.

As Duncan mentioned for the R32's looking at one of the Attessa controllers would be a good benifit as well. Will certainly help reduce the taily nature of the car.

For the brakes you'll find Howard will probably recommend the 365mm AP 6 pot upgrade (same as Frank has). I'm running the same calipers with 375mm rotors. But the 365mm upgrade is the "standard" one and has everything ready for straight bolt in. And despite what anyone may try and tell you - the big front brake upgrade makes a HUGE difference. I found the standard brake set-up to be a bit rear biased and at places like turn 1 Sandown the rear of the car really wanted to come around - but after the AP upgrade it's so much more balanced under brakes and you can be so much more aggressive.

For rims - the other one to look at maybe is the R34 GT-R rims. I have a set of them at home (which you can't have!) if you wanted to physically test them out if they become an option for you. Russel (giant) from QLD has them on his monster R32 that cleaned up us all at Dutton (is running the AP's as well). They did some nice 1.33's at Winton which is impressive given they never had been there before and only got 2 laps in which to set that time!

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Cool, Melbourne v Sydney rivalry

Snowman: thanks for the tips. Best I try and get down to see Ben face to face I think. Too hard to do all this over the phone or email with him. I assume he can supply all the bits needed to tweak the geometry.

Good tip on the R34 rims, I'll keep an eye out for them.

Sydneykid: What you say also makes perfect sense, particularly if the tyres end up being the limiting factor in braking grip rather than rotor size.

More toys to buy now!!!

ps. Who has ATTESSA controllers in Victoria?

Regards

Andrew

[Snowman]

despite what anyone may try and tell you - the big front brake upgrade makes a HUGE difference. I found the standard brake set-up to be a bit rear biased and at places like turn 1 Sandown the rear of the car really wanted to come around - but after the AP upgrade it's so much more balanced under brakes and you can be so much more aggressive

Since I am one of the "anyone", is this a good place to discuss this subject?

Let's assume it is, and see what happens.

Did you get any other advantage other than more front brake bias, which a $50 proportioning valve would have accomplished? Or even cheaper, machining off some of the rear pad to reduce its surface area? Or using a lower CoF rear pad?

cheers

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Ok - other than the balance of the car the actual braking distance given the fact I was using identical pads (Ferrodo DS3000) decreased significantly.

The best example would be say Turn 1 at Sandown where the braking point went from about the 180m mark to around the 140m mark. You can now really feel a significant difference in the stopping power from the speeds of around 220 to 60km/hr. The difference in stopping below those speeds are not so noticable.

And I can not imagine that reducing the rear bias with the $50 proportioning valve rather than increasing the front brake diameters wouldn't have taken the original braking distances out even further (I never tested it but I would presume this to be the case given you would be applying less braking pressure).

Given the significant stabilizing of the car under heavy braking loads into corners and the consequent increase in corner speeds coupled with the reduced braking distance (probably the least important factor in time reduction I admit) but I personally consider for me the brake upgrade to have been a very worthy investment.

The only track I had the opportunity to attend with no other modifications other than the brakes was at Winton where I had my best lap time at the track drop from 1.39.4 to 1.35.2.

[Roy]

And despite what anyone may try and tell you - the big front brake upgrade makes a HUGE difference. I found the standard brake set-up to be a bit rear biased and at places like turn 1 Sandown the rear of the car really wanted to come around - but after the AP upgrade it's so much more balanced under brakes and you can be so much more aggressive.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

LOL...here we go.

I suspect Snowmans car could do with the bigger brakes as after a few laps at a place like Sandown they wold be getting hot, so even if they didnt shorten stopping distances they will at least help the consistancy.

It would have been interesting if you had of done another Sandown day with your old susp...i wonder if you would have actually been able to brake later for turn 1 with the APs over the DBA/Brembos????

As for taily under brakes...that could be brake hardware...could also be 3 or 4 other things...it doesnt matter, your brake setup looks tough

[Roy]

The best example would be say Turn 1 at Sandown where the braking point went from about the 180m mark to around the 140m mark. You can now really feel a significant difference in the stopping power from the speeds of around 220 to 60km/hr. The difference in stopping below those speeds are not so noticable.

The only track I had the opportunity to attend with no other modifications other than the brakes was at Winton where I had my best lap time at the track drop from 1.39.4 to 1.35.2.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Im not saying you are wrong, you know better then any of us, its your car...but some things to consider before stating improvements as a result of the brake upgrade.

And i happen to agree with you, that you need the brakes you are running. But if you think about it....lets take your Winton time. Your 1:39s was with dead pads and worn rubber. So new pads and better quality tyres coincided with your running bigger brakes, no tto mention a certain ATTESSA mod. Plus i am a believer in that you always pick up tenths every time you go to the track, not to mention things like last Winton day was a lot colder then the first round.... i cant see the 4 sec improvement because of brakes.

Then i remember following you into turn 1 at Sandown, admittedly it was your first time out with those brakes and you were still learning/getting a feel for them, but i wasnt having too much trouble hanging onto you thru turn 1, it was actually one of the two places i could get back just a fraction of time. I doubt that would be the case now you have your new susp and use to the brakes...but they needed to improve dramatically from those few laps when i was behind you in the 1:25s.

Mind you 1:22s is a hell of an improvement over 1:25s, but again surely most of that 3 seconds was from you not short shifting on the straights.

So again im not arguing with you, but im just trying to get a better feel for the real gain in lap times with the brakes, over the course of a few laps, there could be seconds in it, over the first hot lap...thats what im interested in trying to ascertain

LOL...next Sandown day, bring the Brembos and DBAs and we will do a back to back with the new susp

Oh...and an old favourite that seems to be a good practical test of what the theory suggests....

Car & Driver did a test a few years ago ...Test Car was a WRX (US Spec which only uses two piston sliding caliper, not as good as Nissan 4 spot or later Model WRX 4 pots)

So tested kits were, std car, std car with upgraded pads and fluid, Brembo F50 Kit, Brembo Lotus Kit (Similar to as fitted to GTRs, 44/38mm pistons), Stoptech it and Prodrive Kit (Alcon)

Stopping Distances 70mph - 0 , 3 Stop

Brembo F50;_____________ 185 / 183 (Average / Best)

Brembo Lotus; ______________ 200 / 196

Prodrive; __________________ 198 / 194

StopTech;__________________ 187 / 186

Stock; ____________________ 205 / 196

Stck with pads and fluid; ____187 / 184

The above figures are all in feet, one stop difference between pad and fluid upgrade to crappy sliding caliper brake setup and massive Brembos is 1 ft...lol 30cms:( And over 3 stops the average is 2 ft...lol 60cms:)

So you can see the one stop max of the upgraded pads and fluid is damn good when you consider the $$$ to % difference.

Stopping Distances 100mph - 0 , 25 Stop

Brembo F50; _____________ 299 / 288 (Average / Best)

Brembo Lotus; ______________305 / 294

Prodrive; __________________ 308 / 295

StopTech;__________________ 297 / 290

Stock;_____________________ 340/317

Stck with pads and fluid;_____316/299

Not the world of difference you would be led to believe by the "you need 6pot caliper 343mm rotor crowd."

Specs of the kits:

Rotor Weight (pounds) Size in inches (diam / thk)

Brembo F50;.................15.8......................... .13.1 / 1.3

Brembo Lotus;..............12.9.......................... 12.9 / 1.1

Prodrive;......................16.5...........................13.0 / 1.1

StopTech;...................13.9..........................12.9 / 1.1

Stock;.................. ......14.2..........................11.6 / 0.9

Caliper Weight , Piston Size, (mm)

Brembo F50;..........8.6 pounds...........40 / 44, Leading / Trailing

Brembo Lotus;.......6.8.......................36 / 40

Prodrive;...............9.1..................... 34.9 / 41.3

StopTech;.............9.3.....................36 / 40

Stock;.................10.8.................. .43 / 43

...and COST!!!

Brembo F50;.......................US$2,995

Brembo Lotus;.....................US$2,595

Prodrive;.............................US$1,999

StopTech;...........................US$1,695

Stock with pads & fluid;....... US$130

And remember thet US Spec cars dont get the same 4 pot calipers that WRX get in Aus. And the aftermarket setups have much bigger rotors then the std WRX setup.

So would expect better performance from OZ Spec WRX or Nissan 4pot calipers with pads and fluid.

It seems the main benefits of the big brake kits are reduced operating temperatures, and more feel and firmer pedal. The reduced temp means the rotors arent being knocked around near as much, and you can run a nicer pad which means there is likely to be less wear on the rotors. And of course less likely to boil and ruin the pricey brake fluid

There is no doubt that the big brake upgrades offer great improvements in feel and consistancy, but they dont reduce stopping distances by large margins like people imagine. Thats what a combination of good tyres, suspension and brakes do.

[Snowman]

Ok - those figures you show mean nothing with-out knowing some facts.

For sake of arguement I'll just use the F50 and the stock with "pads and fluid" ones.

Were the F50 calipers using the same pads and fluid as the stock set-up with "pads and fluid".

I only ask because there seems to be a massive difference between the F50 and the standard stock set-up before the stock changed pads and fluids. There's nothing in that report to state the same difference wouldn't be found on the F50's given a change of pads and fluids.

That day at Sandown when you were behind me was the 1st time out with those brakes and took me quite a while to get used to them as I was having a lot of ABS issues. As you said there is a big difference between the 1.25/1.26's I was doing in that session and the 1.22's I was doing once I got a better feel for the brakes.

But anyways....

I can only tell you that from inside the car sitting in that steering seat for me there is a massive difference between the stock set-up and the new one (PS - I forgot about the diff mod at Winton. lol. I really need to stop playing with my car!)

[Roy]

For sake of arguement I'll just use the F50 and the stock with "pads and fluid" ones.

Were the F50 calipers using the same pads and fluid as the stock set-up with "pads and fluid".

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Ah, good point...i just checked the article and it appears the Brembo/Alcon kits etc used the pads that they came with..so thats a pretty good variabel i hadnt considered. They were all preoperly bedded and bled with the same Motul RBF600 fluid though...but looking at th epictures the backing plates etc say Prodrive etc so it seems its acase of "whatever the kit comes with"

... I was having a lot of ABS issues. As you said there is a big difference between the 1.25/1.26's I was doing in that session and the 1.22's I was doing once I got a better feel for the brakes.

But anyways....

I can only tell you that from inside the car sitting in that steering seat for me there is a massive difference between the stock set-up and the new one

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Yeh and i appreciate that i happened to have ben behind you when you were coming to grips with it, but do you attribute all of the 3 second improvement to the brakes????

So if i bolted on your same setup do you think that would be the difference between me playing around in the 1:25s and getting down to the 1:22???

Regarding the massive difference, i found that going from 280mm to 324mm made a massive difference as well. The car was so much easier and consistant to pull up with i suppose the word is better modulation. Looking at my lap times they made little difference, but the car felt much better to drive and gave me confidence to give it a punt under brakes...i can imagine having 365mm rotors would feel brillient thru the pedal....especially with those nice rigid calipers...

Meh, i suppose i should stop using theory as an excuse for being too tight to fork out for brakes

[Sydneykid]

And I can not imagine that reducing the rear bias with the $50 proportioning valve rather than increasing the front brake diameters wouldn't have taken the original braking distances out even further (I never tested it but I would presume this to be the case given you would be applying less braking pressure).

Ah no, not necessarily. What you are trying to do by decreasing the rear brake bias is to stop the tendancy for the rear brakes to lock, skip and generally unsettle the rear end. You may not be using the front brakes to their max, because of the unsettled rear end. By settling down the rear end you will then be able to use the front brakes more, the usual simplistic equation follows;

100% braking effort = 70% front 30 % rear

But because of unsettled rear end, 60% front 30% rear = 90%

Limit rear brake to 25% and front can achieve 70% = 95%

Hence 5% improvement in braking performance from reducing the rear bias by 5%.

The WRX test that Roy posted is only one of many similar tests done over the years. They all come to the same conclusion, the best for buck brake upgrade is pads and fluid. Removing the backing plates and upgrading to braided lines is next on the list, followed by some ducting. If the grip of the tyres exceeeds that upgraded braking performance, then its time to consider the calliper and rotor size upgrade. Far too many people reach for "bigger brakes" without knowing what the standard brakes can do for them, if they are in good condition.

With Skylines we are not talking about crappy standard brakes here, the Sumitomo 4 piston front and 2 piston rear are far from average callipers. There are plenty of so called "upgraded" braking kits out there that are not half as good.

Sorry, but I don't swallow the "pads ain't pads" argument. Note carefully the costs;

Stock with pads & fluid;....... US$130

This means expensive, race compounds of pads were not used in the stock system comparison. Holy cow, I would expect a set of $US3K Brembos would come with a damn site better pad than I could buy for $US100 (or less) for the standard calliper.

I have a simple phylosophy when it comes to brakes. If the driver (with the same pressure and modulation) can still lock them up after a 20 lap race, then the tyres are the limiting factor in braking distance. Not the brakes themselves.

i suppose i should stop using theory as an excuse for being too tight to fork out for brakes

My suggestion, spend the money on shocks. We find that spending the $4K on better shocks gives a faster lap time than spending that same $4K on brakes. We do run a control tyre (A032R), so every minute amount of extra traction we can get is vital.

cheers

[Roy]

My suggestion, spend the money on shocks. We find that spending the $4K on better shocks gives a faster lap time than spending that same $4K on brakes.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Yeh thats the next step for me...tweak the susp, i can get a decent deal on DMS through the Tech-Sport in Vic, but i can still get HKS Hypermax II for half the price again...so most likely do the HKS things which come with about the spring rate i want, and split the difference between brakes and diff

[RH9]

Awesome feedback guys, yes I was told by and ex Apexi engineer that the F50 kit was the one to go for - apparently if you shop around it can be had new for less than $3500nzd (calipers/rotors/pads/lines). If your paying that much in usd your not getting a good deal - they arent gold!!

Next question: spring rates

The quick circuit cars in Japan are using between 14-18kg fronts and 12-14kg rears. Anyone care to reveal what spring rates they have tried?

Obviously a huge downside on a road car that experiences different surfaces - so please dont bother saying "you'll have a very hard ride"

[Sydneykid]

Yeh thats the next step for me...tweak the susp, i can get a decent deal on DMS through the Tech-Sport in Vic, but i can still get HKS Hypermax II for half the price again...so most likely do the HKS things which come with about the spring rate i want, and split the difference between brakes and diff

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Hi Roy, you know I don't rate Jap shocks, never seen ANY that I would spend my money on. Jamie does a OK job for the price. so even if the HKS where the same price, I would take the DMS big bore shocks over them every time.

The IP GTR used to run DMS, but now it has Proflex in there. Big improvement, around 1 sec a lap faster in qualifying and 12 seconds faster over 10 laps. They just make the tyres last that much longer. The high frequency control is supurb and the spring rate required is much lower. The RX7 has Ohlins (proper Swedish Ohlins, not Jap ones) and they are just a bit better again.

Next time I buy some shocks for my GTST it will be Proflex, unless I win Lotto and can afford Ohlins.

cheers

[Scotsman]

I agree with Sydneykid that the main theory behind braking is if you can still lock em up in the last lap, then they are good enough. But I'm going to have to contradict myself here. I have had the advantage of driving the Snowmobile and comparing it to my setup, and I found that I was consistently turning in too early to corners because I was pulling up quicker than expected.

Now I didn't drive his car with the Brembo's in it, but his setup was exactly what mine is in my car now. DBA5000's, Ferodo DS3000, Good Fluid, and similar suspension tune. The braking markers I used in Snowies car were at least 5m deeper into the corner than with my own car. (and where snowie used to brake when I followed him)

Now cosider that he's carrying more speed along that same straight than me with my measly 230kw. I can't accept that the brakes aren't pulling him up quicker, even if the braking markers were the same. Yes we can both lock our tyres up if we wanted to, but maybee he could do it in the first 0.3 sec of applying the brake, where as mine might take 0.5 sec to fully lock. Maybe thats the difference. More reliable stopping force when the intial contact is made. So i'm suggesting his brake setup is wiping off more speed in the first 1/2 second of applying than with his previous setup. I know that sorta contradicts the tests too, but they were American's and therefore the tests are viod.

Bottom line is: I felt the Snowmobile pulled up awesome compared with mine. And I maintain my brakes very well.

[Snowman]

See - independant SOP tests prove that the big brakes on my car have made a difference! LOL

[t01-100]

Hey Sydneykid - I gather you run in Improved Production.

Do you have to run a resctrictor?

How big is it?

Does the rescrtictor kill the potential of the car?

...and how competitive is the GTR in the field?