Japan Vs. The World

[Duncan]

There should be nice cheap second hand elises coming out of the khumo trophy over the next few years if you don't mind a car that has seen a bang or two

[Dr_Inferno]

There's plenty of non-jap cars i would drive.

MB 190e 2.3L 16v

Mk I Golf

Mk V Golf (preferably an R32)

BMW 1 series (if we got it)

Audi A/S 4

There's certainly more than Japanese cars. Most of the ones i want to drive aren't that practical though :-\

Alfa Romeo GTA sprint

Alfa Romeo Spider Duetto

Corvette Grand Sport

Renault Modus

Renault Clio

Triumph GT6

so many cars. so little money and even less time.

edit: heh. i managed to forget the elise. The 190 sports are SO hawt.

Edited October 16, 2005 by Dr_Inferno

[scathing]

technically an Elise dosen't qualify either as it has a toyota engine

For the price point comparison, I was comparing the Z Roadster to the Rover powered Elise.

[scathing]

You'd have to get the rover K series engined elise with a massive 82(ish)kw.  Or the Elise 111S has a bit more power and still runs the K-series engine. Only the top spec 111R and Exige have the Toyota 2ZZ engine.  I'd love an elise, but the $$$ just don't add up for me.  A 111R is about $100k

Is that because you can't see the value in it, or purely because you can't afford it? If its the latter, you're not really comparing the vehicles on their merits, merely on your own constraints.

Lets say you had $100K in your pocket purely for car buying; would you buy a brand new Lotus Elise or an about 15 year old R32 GTS-t and try throwing the change into mods?

If anything, I'd say throwing even throwing $50K+ at an R32 that's not even a GT-R is a situation where the "$$$ just don't add up".

Its not exactly fair to compare a 15 year old car to a brand new one on a total price (including mods) structure, something I alluded to earlier but evidently escaped some people.

Nor is it particularly fair to compare cars of such disparate classes. Since we're talking "Japanese cars vs the rest of the world's car", the only thing we should be removing from the comparison is the country of manufacturer and badge cachet. To make it truly fair, the price in its domestic market should be used but I suppose the price in Australia means the most to us here.

And the 82kW is more impressive if you think about the fact that the car weighs about half that of a GT-R. A mid to high 14 quarter mile isn't too bad for 82kW, even though the car's really not set up for it.

Your peak power number in isolation is only impressive if your only automotive needs is bragging rights while sitting outside the vehicle, or you're only interested in driving in a straight line. A mentality I thought was the domain of "bogans", and I definitely know is not in the interests of a potential Elise buyer. If its paltry power output concerns you that much.....maybe you're not the right demographic to be driving one of the best handling and most rewarding production cars in the world.

[ORACLe__]

If i had to have a non-jap car. i would chose a Dodge Viper GTS

[SAM112]

ferrari 360 modena or spider

[Big Rizza]

Is that because you can't see the value in it, or purely because you can't afford it? If its the latter, you're not really comparing the vehicles on their merits, merely on your own constraints.

Lets say you had $100K in your pocket purely for car buying; would you buy a brand new Lotus Elise or an about 15 year old R32 GTS-t and try throwing the change into mods?

If anything, I'd say throwing even throwing $50K+ at an R32 that's not even a GT-R is a situation where the "$$$ just don't add up".

Its not exactly fair to compare a 15 year old car to a brand new one on a total price (including mods) structure, something I alluded to earlier but evidently escaped some people.

Nor is it particularly fair to compare cars of such disparate classes. Since we're talking "Japanese cars vs the rest of the world's car", the only thing we should be removing from the comparison is the country of manufacturer and badge cachet. To make it truly fair, the price in its domestic market should be used but I suppose the price in Australia means the most to us here.

And the 82kW is more impressive if you think about the fact that the car weighs about half that of a GT-R. A mid to high 14 quarter mile isn't too bad for 82kW, even though the car's really not set up for it.

Your peak power number in isolation is only impressive if your only automotive needs is bragging rights while sitting outside the vehicle, or you're only interested in driving in a straight line. A mentality I thought was the domain of "bogans", and I definitely know is not in the interests of a potential Elise buyer. If its paltry power output concerns you that much.....maybe you're not the right demographic to be driving one of the best handling and most rewarding production cars in the world.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Your long spiel was unneccessary - the $$ don't add up because I cannot afford it, pure and simple . I couldn't really afford my R32 GTS-T either, but that just means I make some sacrifices like going without food sometimes. But I finish my Engineering degree at the end of this semester and hopefully will get cashed up enough to buy something like an Elise.

Having said that, the offerings from Elfin, Westfied, Caterham, Arial etc. make the Elise look like a fat overpriced underpowered poser-mobile. Even the Vauxhall VX220 Turbo makes the Elise look bad from a value for money perspective (same platform, more power from 147kw Astra Turbo engine, lower price).

But the Elise is a LOTUS, and you pay for their badge, motorsport heritage and incredible suspension and chassis knowledge.

[scathing]

I'd argue that an Elise is a more "complete" car than a Westfield, Caterham or Arial. They do have a bigger R&D budget, and they're also more "sports" and less "racing" than the Lotus 7 copies. Considering windshields and wipers were options on Westfields (not sure about now), it goes to show the difference in philosophy.

Those Clubmans should be faster on the track, but as a street car I'd be more likely to purchase an Elise. PRBs are having harder and harder times getting road registered these days, but the Elise will have no issues.

While badge and history I agree are intangibles (ones I don't particularly care about, and don't want to pay for) the last one does increase value for money and is worth paying for, if you're throwing your spending power at buying a sports car.

[Big Rizza]

I'd argue that an Elise is a more "complete" car than a Westfield,  Caterham or Arial. They do have a bigger R&D budget, and they're also more "sports" and less "racing" than the Lotus 7 copies. Considering windshields and wipers were options on Westfields (not sure about now), it goes to show the difference in philosophy.

Those Clubmans should be faster on the track, but as a street car I'd be more likely to purchase an Elise. PRBs are having harder and harder times getting road registered these days, but the Elise will have no issues.

While badge and history I agree are intangibles (ones I don't particularly care about, and don't want to pay for) the last one does increase value for money and is worth paying for, if you're throwing your spending power at buying a sports car.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Not arguing here! I agree 100% with everything you've said. I will however say that in my opinion Vauxhall VX220 Turbo would be better than the Elise as a daily driver, whilst delivering similar thrills both on and off the track, for less cost, and is hence arguably a more complete car than the Elise. It is a pity that Holden won't import it .

Maybe now that HSV have announced they will be in future importing the 166kw Vauxhall Astra VXR, they will also import the VX220 VXR. Although I think a name change is in order - HSV VX220 VXR is a bit of a mouth full!

[scathing]

Yeah, I'm with you on the VX220. I would love one of those things. Its boxy and angular in a non-80's (and therefore ugly) way, and there's plenty of poke in it.

It is a little bigger than the Elise, and a little softer, but that will probably make it an even better street car.

As a personal preference though, on a car like that I'd run it without turbos to keep that instant and pure throttle response. One thing I like about the Elise is its purity. No power steering, no powered brakes, and NA engines. Just everything the car's doing faithfully transmitted to your limbs.

I'd consider a screw-type supercharger, but in a 800kg car (like the Elise) I would much prefer a tweaked version of the K20A out of an Integra Type-R (IMNSHO a better street engine than the Toyota motor they are using) than a tweaked SR20VET that the X-Trail uses.

(I picked the X-Trail purely because it makes the most amount of power from the factory of any turbo Nissan 4-pot).

The Rover-powered Elise is quick enough in the bends (and I've chased one on the track and out in the country), and I'm all for having more handling than power. Drop a nice Jap engine into it and retrieve some of the factory tolerances, and it'd be fine.

[monaroCountry]

Ill get the

1) Corvette "Blue Devil"

More than 600hp from the 427 engine

2) Holden/Elfin Clubman MS8

With a detuned Holden V8 engine all in a small package (925kg)

3) Holden/Elfin Streamliner MS8

Just imagine the Streamliner/Clubman with the current LS2 engine, or better yet with the corvette engine. Oh yeah 600+hp in a 925kg car.