What Would You Do If You Were In My Shoes?

[Merli]

ok you have outlined what not to do, so what do you recommend doing instead?

im thinking of ditching engineering and doing some IT myself.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

heh

People say they're in "IT" when they have jobs ranging from Level 1 Helpdesk to CIOs of multi-billion dollar multi-national companies.

"Fields" in IT also range from software engineering (coding software), electrical engineering (building hardware components), networking (designing and implementing data networks), intergration (providing an end-to-end solution for clients, whatever it takes), services (selling your time and expertise to clients to resolve particular needs or issues), etc etc...

What *EXACTLY* do you want to do? Tell me EXACTLY what you want to be doing everyday.

Do you want to write software? If so, what languages do you want to code in? Also, what KIND of software? open source collaborations? Internal corporate software? or Develop your own software and market it?

Do you want to play with networks? If so, what PART of networking? Professional Services? (configuring routers and switches and then going out to client sites and installing them) Pre-Sales? (Lots of client meetings and coming up with several solutions to their needs) Architecture? (Taking the lead from Pre-Sales and actually DESIGNING a working solution for the client) What about maintenance? (Looking after existing customer networks and troubleshooting) Sales? (Selling your companies services and bringing in business) etc etc...

(Again, these above examples are job descriptions from the CORPORATE IT industry... But If you're looking to get a job at a smaller company that needs an "IT" person, then your path is easy. Get your MCSE, A+, Checkpoint, CCNA and other certifications like that to show you're an all-rounder and "know a little bit of everything"... Be warned though, those types of jobs (although very easy too land) don't command high salaries and have very very little room for career growth. If you want to be one of those "IT high-rollers", you're going to have to narrow down your skill-set and specialise in one or two areas)

What you want to do *EXACTLY* will determine what path you should take. It's impossible for any of us to tell you "How to get into IT".

[Merli]

Thanks for your feed back guys much appreciated

I truly believe if you are in a job position your love and have a passion for it you are truly blessed.

I think i will follow what i love doing and hit the books for the CCNA.

I know it does not guarantee me a job in the field but it doesn’t hurt to have that cert.

I think my biggest struggle is getting my foot in the door in Cisco its so hard I mean how do you get in without experience.

i tried a year ago rang heaps of places up, even went to Cisco head office in north Sydney

asked for work experience willing to work on my holidays or weekends for just work experience

its so hard didn’t find anything but i wont stop trying.

What kind of "networking" do you want to do exactly?

How old are you?

Do you have any tertiary level degrees/diplomas?

What "networking" experience do you have? With that technologies?

What kind of salary would you be chasing?

Oh, and where do you live?

[sewid]

I would do both of those and then more. They are both such entry level certs that they are not really going to help get you anywhere except onto the next cert in line.

The CCNA test is about an afternoon worth of study for anyone who has ever used a router before and knows basic math.

Try and get someone else to pay for them and do all the certs you can.....

[Links]

"The CCNA test is about an afternoon worth of study for anyone who has ever used a router before and knows basic math."..

yeah.. kinda.. not really..

MCSE - yeah sure it's useful, but everyman and his dog knows atleast some microsoft.. - you start looking at high level cisco and not everyone knows it.. sure ccna is easy - but look at heading to CCSP or CCVP where your a VoIP or Security specialist.. that's a good start..

Main reason to get CCNA - you have to have it to get your CCNP.. that's about it.. ain't worth crap all apart from that..

Goto say what merli says is pretty much right..

You need to break it down.. what are do you want to get into - design, support, provisioning, installs.. theres alot of options and you'll have to start somewhere..

as for my vote - I say CCNA - it's more interesting I find..

currently I work with cisco gear everyday - however it's all remotely - which is both good and bad.. ranging from cisco 800's to cisco 7200's.. all interesting and love my job..

[Babylon]

What kind of "networking" do you want to do exactly?

How old are you?

Do you have any tertiary level degrees/diplomas?

What "networking" experience do you have? With that technologies?

What kind of salary would you be chasing?

Oh, and where do you live?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Im 23 years old,

ive done the network engineering diploma at TAFE

also done the CCNA preparation course

ive had experience in hardware support, 1st level applications support, and currently working in 1st level IT support (around 4 years experience all up)

I find it so hard getting my foot in the door in the area i want to work in

which is working in a large company doing 1st level support for routers and switches basically trouble shooting side of the field.

I know the CCNA wont help me land a job but its a start i guess. Its really my 2nd attemp it.. i did the course at Tafe and it was the biggest mistake i did the course wasnt run properly and i had no idea what i was doing the only people that passed that course were people already in that industry who knew what they were doing before the course started this time im going to do it my self (play around with routers and switches at home)

[Merli]

Sounds good...

You should be fine to get that kind of position with the experience you've got. You just have to wait until a position comes up. It's all about being in the right place at the right time

I work for the Advanced IP Technologies branch of IBM and we work with all the cutting edge applications of IP Network architectures. IP Tel, IP Communications, Tandberg/Cisco Video Conferencing, Vocera Wireless Communications, etc... I'd say we do 90% Cisco, and a mixture of Tandberg/Vocera/Nortel/Nokia/HP devices for the remaining 10% when clients request it.

Obviously these adv technologies all run over your basic data network, so we have the need for "lower band" engineers to take on the job of setting up LAN/WAN networks, getting QoS running properly to provide us with the guaranteed bandwidth we need to run the above goodies.

I know that we were looking for lower band staff a while ago, but I think we've filled those positions. I'll keep an ear open though.

You should come to a few monthly dinners so I can meet you. No promises, but a lead is better than no lead

[ecl]

if you've had some experience, go for the cisco certs

i have a mcse whilst working p/t and currently studying software engineering and havent really had the opportunity to use the mcse again ..

[GTR R35]

I have recently advertised for a 2nd level server administrator and had 150+ applicants. Most had MCSE and CCNA qualifications and some had Degrees in IT and computer science. This is all for a job paying $40k per year.

The biggest problem in the industry is the lack of respect that these certifications have. Since the training places offer "cram" courses to pass the exam, we have found that MCSE and CCNA's do not know even the basics. They can "quote" technical stuff, but they cannot back up the knowladge if I dig a bit deeper.

If I was you I would see if you can get specific training on some type of IP Telephony product and become a specialist in a certain piece of IP technology as the entry level qualifications are a dime a dozen.

I have 15 years in LAN/WAN networking and have had my own IT Service comapny for 12 years, so I guess I have seen a shift from paper qualifications to people that have real world experience in using the products. You find that any mainstream cources offer very little as far as getting a job, unless you want to work for the government....or IBM (sorry couldn't help it Andrew:-)

[Beer Baron]

mmm government.

[Merli]

You find that any mainstream cources offer very little as far as getting a job, unless you want to work for the government....or IBM (sorry couldn't help it Andrew:-)

What makes you think that IBM gives weight to certifications over experience??? You couldn't be MORE wrong You could have every certification under the sun, but with no experience you won't land a job ANYWHERE. CCIE or not.

Although, I'm interested in where you formed that opinion from... It really is quite an ignorant statement to make, especially since it's so perfectly wrong. You must have gotten that opinion from *somewhere*? Surely you wouldn't just say something like that as a joke?

You don't become a company of 350,000 employees with one of the most marketable brand names in the IT industry by having sub-par employment policies

Meh. I'm not going to get into a slinging match between companies. Everyone seems to have different opinions on big corporate giants, and I'm above slagging other companies like that.

[GTR R35]

Sorry Andrew, I did not mean to be a slanging match, I also did not want to offend you.

Remember we are IBM partners and have daily dealings with IBM, and as with any large company you have a broad range of employees of which I seen some of the bad ones.

I believe that IBM is one of the best IT companies int he world, this is why we only buy their servers, but I have had some "experts" that say they are certified and they know SFA about the gear they are working on.

Also IBM is a big company that like Telstra cop a lot of crap from us little guys that get a fair bit of unfair play from them. I have had IBM try to steal clients from me due to big deals I was working on, so I do have a love/hate relationship with them.

I also did not say that IBM had sub par employment practices, I just said that they will look at qualifications over experience as it is "proof" that the person knows what they are on about, there is nothing wrong with this type of employment practice.

I think you need too read the post in the context it was made, as I know you well enough to know you are a very experienced IT guy and I have given you crap about IBM to your face in a joking way and we laughed about it.

Sorry if I ofended you.

Mal

[Merli]

You didn't offend me... It takes a LOT more than that to offend me

But I was concerned that you posted something something so derogatory as to compare IBM to government agencies in a thread where people are clearly trying to help others find their feet in our industry. You might have been posting in jest, but people just getting their feet wet in IT would not know that, and see IBM as a bad place to work for.

The internet doesn't convey the same emotions as across a dinner table with beer in hand

In any case, IBM does deserve a lot of the cr4p it gets. I know this as much as the next guy, but you can't blanket an entire global company, or even all 150 or so different Australian divisions of IBM with one brush

In our small, specialised subsidiary of Big Blue, certifications are a considered a good tool to show what level of knowledge you've been exposed to... Much like a university degree. That isn't exactly a great tool for assuring any level of knowledge But certifications do NOT preclude the much much more important need for practical experience. Not in IBM, not in your company.

That said, a CCIE, an exam with less than 10% pass-rate (*including* Cisco employees!) is a pretty good indication of knowledge. Especially since it incorporates a written AND practical lab components. In fact, less than 3% of Cisco-certified professionals actually attain their CCIE.

[Babylon]

Sounds good...

You should be fine to get that kind of position with the experience you've got. You just have to wait until a position comes up. It's all about being in the right place at the right time

I work for the Advanced IP Technologies branch of IBM and we work with all the cutting edge applications of IP Network architectures. IP Tel, IP Communications, Tandberg/Cisco Video Conferencing, Vocera Wireless Communications, etc... I'd say we do 90% Cisco, and a mixture of Tandberg/Vocera/Nortel/Nokia/HP devices for the remaining 10% when clients request it.

Obviously these adv technologies all run over your basic data network, so we have the need for "lower band" engineers to take on the job of setting up LAN/WAN networks, getting QoS running properly to provide us with the guaranteed bandwidth we need to run the above goodies.

I know that we were looking for lower band staff a while ago, but I think we've filled those positions. I'll keep an ear open though.

You should come to a few monthly dinners so I can meet you. No promises, but a lead is better than no lead

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

sounds good in the mean while im just going to put my head down work hard and hit the my old cisco books and just wait...

the only thing im confused about is how does someone like me get his foot in the door without any real solid experience in routers and switches more of my stuff is 1st level support in the broad range of the IT industry

Supporting

eg outlook

lotus notes

office

printers

networks

novell

Active Directory

internal apps etc

I really haven’t had solid experience supporting routers and switches

sure ive gone a prep course for the ccna (70% hands on) but thats not enough

my question is how does someone go from where i am to where i want to go?

courses and self study is all fine but you all aware that means nothing without experience, question how do you get experience if you cant get the job?

Edited September 27, 2005 by Babylon

[Merli]

Yeah, that's the question isn't it?

I guess I was a little luckier in that my degree incorporated 3x 6 month "industrial training" stints, so when I graduated, I already had 1.5 years experience to go along with the degree.

You'll always be able to get an entry level job in ANY industry. Experience or not... It all depends on two things:

1. Good timing (IT boom, lots of vacancies)

2. How much you're expecting to earn

[Beer Baron]

But I was concerned that you posted something something so derogatory as to compare IBM to government agencies

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

now you're offending me. Iimplying that being likened to a goverment agency is derogatory... I outta punch your lights out... In fact i think it's the other way around. I should be offened Mal compared a GA to IBM!

you do realise i'm kidding right??? I just woke up from nap time and though i would ad something valuable. hehehe.

[ferni]

Listen to Andrew, he knows what he's talking about, even if he does work for IBM (j/k)

Who you know, not what you know. Make friends with Andrew if you're in sydney, he's probably a good contact to have

My suggestion to you would be try to get into another 1st/2nd level support role more focused on networks, at least you'll have half the job experience (supporting).

ISP helpdesk may be good to learn on since they use lots of cisco/network stuff

As for your orig question, sounds to me like you want to get into networking, so do your CCNA, and then move onto the next cert, CCNP or whatever tickles your fancy.

[Links]

Ahhh the great networking debate..

well i'll give you a run down on what's happened with me..

Completed a Comp Sci degree @ uni..

Got a job with Cisco for a while working as a support engineer in the TAC (worldwide support teams)

Moved over to Optus.. been there 3 months as a Network Engineer - don't work on quite as high a level as andrew, however do work on alot of cisco gear..

best way to get into a networking job - through people you know.. it's very difficult to walk into a job that you just "apply for".. it helps when someone recommneds you apply for it..

Also if you are struggling - I would suggest doing some 6 month contracts through an agency - you are at no time under obligation to stay there - if you get offered something better than leave and go there.. but on the other hand - be careful - no one wants to see 8 jobs in 6 months..

Contract work is great - and I was doing that at Cisco - however it wasn't for me - personally I prefer full time - but a starts a start..

Currently I do business provisioning - including working on some top end and low end cisco gear - quite interesting working in large scale networking..

Good luck with it - i'd stick with the cisco - and as everyone says - experience helps.. btw - I don't have cisco cert however I know about 10x more than it.. in my eyes it just shows your good at rote learning - i've seen people who have done the exam and never even picked up or configured a real router..

Edited September 27, 2005 by Links

[Links]

oh and merli - i'll have to come along to a dinner and have a chat sometime..

[Babylon]

Yeah we should organise a dinner sit down and talk nerdy!

guys im looking for some ccna material like self study stuff (say that really fast 10 times)

man im so confused theres like 423953409584390 books out there

http://www.dymocks.com.au/ContentDynamic/F...ISBN=1587200953

http://www.dymocks.com.au/ContentDynamic/F...ISBN=158720083X

http://www.dymocks.com.au/ContentDynamic/F...ISBN=1587200945

http://www.dymocks.com.au/ContentDynamic/F...ISBN=1587051842

http://www.dymocks.com.au/ContentDynamic/F...ISBN=0782143113

any recommendations?

Thanks Guys

[Links]

i'd recommend getting the sybex guide..

also the cisco press one's (there is 2 - one for the 640-811 and 640-821) I think?..

is helpful and in depth..

pm me for a site that has them as pdf's...

Edited September 28, 2005 by Links