Anti - 4wd/suv Discussion

[KeeFy]

WHAT A BEAUTY !

http://www.gizmag.com.au/go/4808/

Some details:

1,001 hp

16-cylinder engine

1,250 Nm at 2,200 rpm

top speed 407 km/h

four turbochargers

permanent four-wheel drive.

1.3 Million USD.

This car smokes anything in it's way man. Except Full flegged drag cars that is.

[Dsturbd]

My skyline has more ground clearance then a forrestor

Now theres n idea , buy a GTR n use that on the beach

[KeeFy]

Forestor? A skyline having more clearance? You must be lookin at a lowered forester man. I highly doubt a skyline stock to a forester stock (no body kits nothing). Has more clearance.

[ossie_21]

How do i get a large sedan into the bush or onto the beach 

As for the t bone thing , was a crash on coal feilds hwy few weeks back  a excell t boned a old 720 4wd , 720 driver walked away n excell front passengers care flight to perth  . 4wd no roll over 

Im not defensive ,    I just like fishing 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I think that this thread has gone off topic a bit. The argument is about the amount of 4wds that will NEVER see the off road, which these days is a very large percentage. You have one to take off road, that's fine. Mums on their way to work 9-5 monday to friday is bad.

[Josh]

exactly

[caminperth]

Reading this thread makes me sad.

Ignorance and the lack of tolerance of the choices of others is what makes Perth a crappy place. Live and let live.

You're saying that just because people don't take their 4WD offroad then they shouldn't have one because you don't like. Well, how about you justify the noisy cannon muffler, dark tint and lowered, hard suspension - which by the way ruins your handling and braking distances.

I agree with what was said earlier in this thread - people in Perth need to learn two things on the road:

1. How to drive - and this includes the majority of drivers, regardless of age or type of car..

2. Empathy and Courtesy - everwhere else I've driven, most people dive with both of these. Just use the freeway in the morning and you can see it's every person for themselves..

[KeeFy]

Reading this thread makes me sad.

Ignorance and the lack of tolerance of the choices of others is what makes Perth a crappy place. Live and let live.

You're saying that just because people don't take their 4WD offroad then they shouldn't have one because you don't like. Well, how about you justify the noisy cannon muffler, dark tint and lowered, hard suspension - which by the way ruins your handling and braking distances.

I agree with what was said earlier in this thread - people in Perth need to learn two things on the road:

1. How to drive - and this includes the majority of drivers, regardless of age or type of car..

2. Empathy and Courtesy - everwhere else I've driven, most people dive with both of these. Just use the freeway in the morning and you can see it's every person for themselves..

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Now you're joining the bandwagon. We stereotype, and so do you. It's human nature to stereotype things/pple. Hard suspension dosn't ruin your handling and braking distances. If you go to the extreme, yes i agree it does, but if it's a nicely tuned system, you will be able to handle better. A lower car = a lower CG = better, but when the bound and rebound rates are too stiff, that's where everything goes down the drain.

Everyone needs to learn how to drive, i agree with that one, no matter how good you think you are at driving.

As for empathy and courtesy, you prolly have not driven in China, Malaysia, and Singapore during the peak hours. Trust me, you think Australia is bad, come over to asia and try it out. When i came over, i felt that the drivers here are so much more couteous, and as such, so have I. It just makes driving a whole lot nicer.

But back to the main topic, personally, these soccer mums/dads/grandparents don't make driving any nicer. Why?

1. Sometimes they just can't see you and they will almost hit into you, if you didn't notice it and swerve, your car would be damaged.

2. They take ages at a bloody round about to wait for absolutely clear traffic... on the right hand side of the lane, which gives u absolutely no visibility, and the moment it's open, instead of goin into their lane, they turn left into ur lane, which cuts you off.

3. They drive as if they own the bloody road. I'm driving at 80 on a 100km/hr highway, but i'm on the extreme left lane (4 lane road). With space on the right, they still tailgate me for a while, untill the point when i slow down to 60, do they overtake me. FOR WHAT? To prove they are big and can intimidate anyone?

4. I'm driving at the speed limit of 70 on the left lane ( i always take the left lane so pple can overtake), this speeding tank comes straight up behind me almost 1/2 a car length away, swerves out and carries on speeding off on the right lane. What's the point in swereving out? Can't he take his time and turn off slowly in the distance? In the first place, what's the rush to be speeding? There were no other cars on the road except me! (5am in the morning).

I'm generalising what i've experienced. So again stereotyping. Don't mind me With all that has happened, i can see why pple dislike them.

P/s: All these incidents, are within 2 mths of gettin my car here. A little to much too fast.

[DanR33]

OK lets get back to the point -

I will make the statement I think that about 90% of 4WD owners can not justify owning them as they never have the need to take them off road.

You may argue that "It's their own choice to own them". But it is my choice to live if i get in an accident, park next to a car that fits in a carspot, drive in a lane next to a car that fits in their lane, not have my vision blocked by some bulky vehicle and when I have kids not have them killed by someone that has poor visability out of their tank. Now this outweighs their right to pick a car that could easily be substituted with a people mover or crossover vehicle.

I think in years to come people will look back at the era of 4WD for urban use as something that was very pointless and a waste of time/money.

[caminperth]

Kieth - nope. Not steroetyping. Just stating the same argument you are using, but applying it back at the import scene.

How can either of you guys argue "I can't see a need for it and I don't like it so nobody should have it.."

It's exactly the same argument anyone against the import scene is using. You're following them into small minded-nessville.

I state again - live and let live.

It's not just the 4wd people who are f*ked up drivers. It's most of the Perth population. And as for comparing them to asian countries - anything is going to look good compared to those idiots. Ever driven in the UK or Europe? You'd reconsider your opinions on Perth drivers being 'couteous'..

Dan - justify why any of us need any more than 20rwhp or a car that can exceed 110km/hr. You can't no matter how you try.

How is a people mover less bulky and how does it have better visibility than a 4wd?

As for it being a waste of money, possibly, but so is that BOV that lots of imports seem to have. I'm sure the people with 4wd's work hard enough to be able to spend their money how they like.

I think the thing that really disapoints me about this thread is that it's at the core of what makes Perth f*ked. If people left each other alone to do what they wanted, had more consideration towards others and stopped letting others bother them we'd probably have a much happier society. I'm sure if a more open attitude could be stretched to road use, then people would stop driving like idiots....

Edited November 14, 2005 by caminperth

[caminperth]

To add to the above - I'm sure most will agree with me when I say that we modify and drive the cars we do because we can - not because we can justify them.

Why not let others do things because they can?

[KeeFy]

I'm from Asia, Singapore to be exact. I've driven in London, Germany, and Spain. I'll be goin to USA at the end of the year, i'll let u know then. London has it's fair share of idiots and it can get quite bad, esp when the bloody police is screaming by you. But not germany for sure and Spain is one hell of a place to drive. So when i came to Perth, i felt driving here is much better than what i'm used to.

I know i bought a skyline because i'm gonna track it. Just need little more time to set it up and $$ is an issue. I don't speed on the roads. BOV's is not a necessary item, but i just like the sound of it, but i don't disturb pple with it. So i think, as i don't go around blowing it in neighbourhoods in the middle of the night, heck i almost rarely hear it due to a light foot.

Pple movers are bulky, but the streets are not FILLED with it, so it's not that big a deal. I haven't encounted one on around about or such, but i have encounted those incidents stated in a span of 2 mths. Do the math.

If we left each other alone to let them do what they wanted, Perth would be hell. There'd be no consideration, there would be no law. Pple would be blasting their 1000w soundsystem in cars driving down in the middle of the night disturbing everyone. Pple would be killing each other in front of other pple, and no one would care? Thus, pple come into play, the law comes into action.

I don't have a need for a performance car, but the fact that i wanna track a car, thus a performance car + upgrades. They go into a showroom seeing a 4wd, have no need for it, do not want to bring it offroad, and think, hey that's a nice huge vehicle, i think i like it, regardless on the usage. A 4 door luxury sedan gives more comfort, more fuel economy and more airbags at the same price or cheaper.

Another fact is they can't seem to fit into a carpark properly. And the fact that when they open their door, the bottom of the door is gonna smash into the center of your door, which is the softest part of a car, and the hardest part of a door for a jeep. They can't see the damage they did to their vehicle, but u definitely can see a huge dent in ur door. Another issue is they quite often never park straight. Which is another bitch.

Call me stereotypical and narrowminded, i already admitted to being one.

Cheers

[KeeFy]

I can justify the upgrades for my car, cause i would like my car to be a bit faster on the track.

[sandyb]

O.K. so just cause I can, Im going to drive the largest mack truck I can find, for all those reasons given by the Urban 4WD advocates. Think about it! Its about consideration to other drivers, by these vehicles taking up much more space than they need to for unjustifyable reasons.

Modified skylines and the like do not cause the same damgage in an accident as these Urban 4WD's. Quite simple.

My 2c

Sandy.

[Josh]

Cam - the arguments you put forward against the import side of things are fair enough - but - import cars don't cause problems on the road(admittedly the drivers can and will) that 4WD's do. Noisy exhaust - not gunna make someone crash, dark tint coupled with a lowered car - not gunna be a problem for someone to see over/around..

lowered, hard suspension - which by the way ruins your handling and braking distances - that statement is a bit general, it should be improperly set up lowered and hard suspension, otherwise why the feck would race cars use it??

[caminperth]

Sandy - now you're just being stupid. Who wants a mack truck? I wouldn't be able to park it in my garage.

Crash damage - you're right, they weigh more so would do more damage, but then you could apply this to anything bigger than a smart car.

Josh - I think the problem on the road are caused by the idiots behind the wheel. It wouldn't matter if they were in something smaller - they'd still pull out on you, drive up your butt and generally drive like idiots.

Don't hate the 4wd - hate the idiot baby boomer behind the wheel.

Suspension - How many skylines/silvias/180s do you see "dumped". How many of these would be well setup? I know of many cars around that have just had a set of coil-overs wacked in and haven't been setup properly - most using coil-overs that are more suited to drift. Why do you think alot of people have crap 60' times at the plex? Super hard suspension means more load on the tyres and street tyres aren't slicks..

Edited November 15, 2005 by caminperth

[PHATR32]

i havnt read the last 6 pages of bullsh!t, but i gotta say that i F&CKING HATE city 4wd drivers. they think they are soooooo tuff riding up so high on their 2 ton buckets of shit, that theey dont need to inidcate or even check to see if you are on the other lane.

i have been run off the road so many times by blind, stuck up 4wd people it aint funny.

i heard something a while ago about banning 4wd from the cbd, i say they should do it.

f%ck em all.

steve

[caminperth]

I know i bought a skyline because i'm gonna track it. Just need little more time to set it up and $$ is an issue. I don't speed on the roads. BOV's is not a necessary item, but i just like the sound of it, but i don't disturb pple with it. So i think, as i don't go around blowing it in neighbourhoods in the middle of the night, heck i almost rarely hear it due to a light foot.

But this is where your argument falls down. Your car has the POTENTIAL to make heaps of noise and exceed the speed limit. (as do all of ours ) Why do you need to use a "track" car on the road?

If we left each other alone to let them do what they wanted, Perth would be hell. There'd be no consideration, there would be no law. Pple would be blasting their 1000w soundsystem in cars driving down in the middle of the night disturbing everyone. Pple would be killing each other in front of other pple, and no one would care? Thus, pple come into play, the law comes into action.

I never said anything about circumnavigating the law. I did however say that people should be left alone to do what they want. Obviously within the law.

I don't have a need for a performance car, but the fact that i wanna track a car, thus a performance car + upgrades. They go into a showroom seeing a 4wd, have no need for it, do not want to bring it offroad, and think, hey that's a nice huge vehicle, i think i like it, regardless on the usage. A 4 door luxury sedan gives more comfort, more fuel economy and more airbags at the same price or cheaper.

So how many times will your "track" car actually see the track? Isn't this the same philosophy as people who buy a 4wd for 'occasional' 4wd'ing? You don't have any "need" for anything aside from some food, shelter and clothing - so why buy anything else? Flawed argument.

Another fact is they can't seem to fit into a carpark properly. And the fact that when they open their door, the bottom of the door is gonna smash into the center of your door, which is the softest part of a car, and the hardest part of a door for a jeep. They can't see the damage they did to their vehicle, but u definitely can see a huge dent in ur door.  Another issue is they quite often never park straight. Which is another bitch.

By giving these people different cars I hardly see how it's going to help them park any straighter.

[KeeFy]

But this is where your argument falls down. Your car has the POTENTIAL to make heaps of noise and exceed the speed limit. (as do all of ours ) Why do you need to use a "track" car on the road?

It's because i can't afford a 2nd car. If i could i would dedicate the Skyline specially for the track and it would be setup by now. So unlike rich pple like you, i can only work part time as i study to allow myself to have a chance at modifiying my car for the track and feed myself.

I never said anything about circumnavigating the law. I did however say that people should be left alone to do what they want. Obviously within the law.

Fair Enough. Letting pple do what they want at the risk of others is also another issue, although it's legal untill something happens. That's the reason why 4wd are gettin slammed not just here, but a whole lot of other places. So you're just gonna let pple do what they want and accidentally run u off the road due to their incompetant driving? Or let pple do what they want and tailgate you for no apparent reason when the road is clear? Then my friend, you one weird person. A lousy driver might not be able to drive properly and might do the same to u even in a small car. But have u ever considered the fact that a large 4wd amplifies this effect? A small car takes less lane space. So it's more obvious if the car is out of line and can be kept in line with more ease. A 4wd that's wide, on the other hand, if it starts to drift a little, it's in ur lane already.

So how many times will your "track" car actually see the track? Isn't this the same philosophy as people who buy a 4wd for 'occasional' 4wd'ing? You don't have any "need" for anything aside from some food, shelter and clothing - so why buy anything else? Flawed argument.

By giving these people different cars I hardly see how it's going to help them park any straighter.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I intend to track my car at least once a mth once it's set up. Yes i don't need it, it's a want, and i bought the car with a purpose in mind. To drive the car for what it's made for, and regularly. Pple with the intention of a 4wd almost never see the offroad. I can even safely say, there are 4wd's out there, that has never used it's 4wd ability for offroading, and only city driving + transportation.

[DanR33]

import vs 4WD

People buy imports because they are an enthusiast and want something that the local market cant offer.

People who buy urban 4WD's buy them because they want the biggest safest thing on the road. 4WD's are usually over 2 tonne and have high CG. Tell me how this is safe? Biggest - Yes, Safest - NO! Buy a volvo if you want safe!

[DanR33]

If you look at modified imports they are pretty much the same as hotrods back in the 30's. Engine swaps, tweaked suspension, custom paintjobs, etc are almost as old as the automobile itself. It screams individuality.

4WD's were originally developed as a war vehicle. Yes I understand there is a need for them in the public. People like Steve Irwin need to drive them. But driving them around cities is the same as if Landrover released a sherman tank for urban use (no cannons on it). Would this be ok?

Ok it is illegal to have a car lowered more than 10cm to the ground. It is also illegal to raise a car by more than 2 inches. How is it that any 4WD is legal standard then?