Jump to content
SAU Community

Recommended Posts

No. sorry to say Vortex 95 and 98 are not rich in Toluene.Toluene is a solvent . Different refineries use different processes to increase RON . I make the stuff at kurnell. Also the Companies have agreements in different states about supply. There is no Caltex refinery in Victoria. You will probably find that is a Shell product.

All petrol has some amount of Toluene in it though. What do you mean by 'solvent'?

What are the aromatics in Vortex 98 then? What does Caltex use to raise the Ocatne to 98?

Shell optimax does not have its RON increased. It starts at more than 98 RON and is cut.

  • Replies 62
  • Created
  • Last Reply

Top Posters In This Topic

Top Posters In This Topic

Posted Images

Catalytic reforming units are used to increase the octane of HSR to bring it up to a RON of 95-102. Petrol from the bowser is usually a mix of different unit rundowns that are blended to and tested to be sold.Toluene is not added to increase RON. Toluene, Benzene, Propane, Butane, Xylene, Cyclohexanes, etc are all products of the Reaction in our Reactors. Heat is used to increase the reaction that gives a higher RON.Shell talks about density of Optimax. The density of our rundowns are usually quite a bit higher . This is one of the specs we run to.

HSR is what is distilled from crude oil. There is usually about 4-6 different types of crude running through a crude unit at any time. We use about 10 differing crudes. This is due to availability , and specs needed for summer or winter fuel , Diesel , jet fuel, heating oil , feed to other units, base stock for lube oils and bitumen. Caltex haven't used added octane inprovers since Tetraethyl lead was removed some years ago. We do add a cleaner that cleans fuel systems.

MOst of the Benzene will be removed from all gasoline on the 1st January 2006. This is a Government regulation.If you got BP hi octane fuel in WA it came from BP"s refinery in Kwinnana. If you got Optimax or Synergy or Vortex it came from that same refinery.Sometimes we will send fuel to Victoria to meet a need of the refiners down there and if we have supply probs they will ship it up to Sydney. There aren't tankers runningaround the coast with finished product to stock all the different brands. Kurnell supplies 2/3 of NSW petrol needs so it would be difficult to send any to other states as well.Hope this helps Sorry MIK I misunderstood the tolune part. thought people thought it was an additive. Toluene is used as a solvent in producing lube oils in some processes

That was a great read.....

Was waiting for someone to do a proper test....

Didnt have my mone on caltex tho.... I assumed Optimax was a touch better....

My own tests....

Caltex 98 - Car pinged its tits off (thought i must have got regular unleaded)

BP Ultimate - Car ran great 270km per tank (air fuel ratios were good)

Shell 98 Optimax - Car ran a little rough 300km per tank (air fuel ratios were bordering un safe)

So i generally use Ultimate or Optimax. I find when using Ultimate my bumper is heaps dirtier after a tank and believe this is due to Optimax being a little cleaner.... Also i drive my car the same all the time.... Average fuel consumption is the same every time.... 300 per optimax and 270 from ultimate.... Plus i can get 4cents off at shell.... So i try to get shell as often as possible... However im empty today so im gonna fill on Caltex 98 and try again.... Maby i just got a bum batch the first time????

Using Sydney as an example, am I right in assuming that all 98RON fuel sold here by BP and Mobil is either Optimax (from Clyde) or Vortex (from Kurnell) since neither BP or Mobil have refineries here?

If that is correct, do BP or Mobil (using Sydney as an example again) add their own additives to the fuel refined at Clyde or Kurnell to get their own unique fuel mixture which they then brand as Ultimate or Synergy 8000 respectively?

If they don't add their own additives, then I'm confused as to how there can be differing result between each of the fuels as essentially they should be one of two variants available (given that the tests were conducted in Sydney).

Hopefully someone in the know can answer these questions...it would be interesting to know what really happens.

Might also stop me going out of my way to buy a particular fuel :O

Case and point.... refer pic....

After one tank of ultimate....

going off your fuel consumption and how dirty your rear bar is either you have a massive amount of power or your car is running way to rich... i guess its hard for me to see if my rear bar is very dirty being black and all but i dont seem to get much/if any crap on my rear bar and i only use ultimate.

How can you do a test with a select batch of fuel.

How about the sample the fuel from 100 different servos around Aust and make a comparison.

Look for consistancy in the performance of the fuels as well.

Ill be sticking with the BP Ultimate myself.

Catalytic reforming units are used to increase the octane of HSR to bring it up to a RON of 95-102. Petrol from the bowser is usually a mix of different unit rundowns that are blended to and tested to be sold.Toluene is not added to increase RON. Toluene, Benzene, Propane, Butane, Xylene, Cyclohexanes, etc are all products of the Reaction in our Reactors. Heat is used to increase the reaction that gives a higher RON.Shell talks about density of Optimax. The density of our rundowns are usually quite a bit higher . This is one of the specs we run to.

HSR  is what is distilled from crude oil. There is usually about 4-6 different types of crude running through a crude unit at any time. We use about 10 differing crudes. This is due to availability , and specs needed for summer or winter fuel , Diesel , jet fuel, heating oil , feed to other units, base stock for lube oils and bitumen. Caltex haven't  used added octane inprovers since Tetraethyl lead was removed some years ago. We do add a cleaner that cleans fuel systems.

MOst of the  Benzene will be removed from all gasoline on the 1st January 2006. This is a Government regulation.If you got BP hi octane fuel in WA it came from BP"s refinery in Kwinnana. If you got Optimax or Synergy or Vortex it came from that same refinery.Sometimes we will send fuel to Victoria to meet a need of the refiners down there and if we have supply probs they will ship it up to Sydney. There aren't tankers runningaround the coast with finished product to stock all the different brands. Kurnell supplies 2/3 of NSW petrol needs so it would be difficult to send any to other states as well.Hope this helps Sorry MIK I misunderstood the tolune part. thought people thought it was an additive. Toluene is used as a solvent in producing lube oils in some processes

Thanks for the info kimbod its great :(

I'm also interested in ECR033's question....do we only have 2 identical products in NSW or are they modified by each supplier either at the refinery or afterwards?

Shell Clyde would make Optimax in NSW. I have heard good things about BP's hi octane ,the same as most people have heard about the problems optimax caused in older cars. Each refinery have different plants that are used to make their fuel. We have different units to Shell and to the other companies, Since the companies use different methods to get the legal specs the compostions will obviously be slightly different. During the Ford Sierra days Shell would make special blends for DJ. we made a special one for Colin Bonds Alfa.

Talking about fuels...toluene was used in f1 cars in the 80s at 85 percent. It was very sucessful and these cars were making here hp per liter. Just wandering if anyone could pm me where to get toluene...??

Cheers

Not sure if anybody would be allowed to buy it. Companies can of course. During the Turbo days Ferrari's fuel supplier[i think ELF] would add an amount of water to the fuel . They had little mixers in the tank to keep it in suspension This helped with keeping the engine alive . Little motors with BIG horsepower. If my old senile mind is right BMW"s 4 cylinder would have a qualifing BHP of around 1500-1700hp

Tolulene is the most common ingredient in octane booster and can be purchased as High aromatic thinners. you need to make sure it is 100% tolulene. it comes from paint stores. A mixture of 10% tolulene in 98 RON is acceptible. it also increases the MON ratin of the fuel.

Water can also be added to fuel however in a high enough density it has the ability to hydrolock an engine. a better way to do it is thru injection into the intake before the throttle body :(

Using Sydney as an example, am I right in assuming that all 98RON fuel sold here by BP and Mobil is either Optimax (from Clyde) or Vortex (from Kurnell) since neither BP or Mobil have refineries here?

Pretty much. Many years ago (OK, not that many) I worked at Clyde Refinery, and there was a single 6 inch pipe that went across the river to BP's facility in Silverwater.

If that is correct, do BP or Mobil (using Sydney as an example again) add their own additives to the fuel refined at Clyde or Kurnell to get their own unique fuel mixture which they then brand as Ultimate or Synergy 8000 respectively?

Ahh ... here's where things get tricky, because one side is certainly not going to tell the other what they do :(

If they don't add their own additives, then I'm confused as to how there can be differing result between each of the fuels as essentially they should be one of two variants available (given that the tests were conducted in Sydney).

There could be a few explanations. The fuel samples mentioned in the report say they drew the fuel from the bowser. Now, the fuel in the storage tank at the servo is going to be a mix of different batches of fuel, *potentially* from different sources. (ie: Singapore exports a fair amount of fuel to Australia). But, since the sources were mentioned in the report, then this needs to be accounted for.

Unless fuel samples were taken from all over Australia at many different times, the results of the tests are bullshit and don’t hold much more validity then a debate on the internet.

Not really, a report is only as accurate as the data, and as long as this fact is mentioned in the report, then it is valid for the samples under test only.

hmmm interesting results..

it's good that someone had a go at this age-old question, but i'm not convinced

Having meself been in medical research, its very hard to just do something and have everyone believe it. you have to prove it to them and remove ANY variable to show that the SINGLE factor that changed results was the factor in question. This is always going to be very hard with this kind of test

My quarms are that:

- tests were not repeated

- use of only one engine type (forced induction only)

- use of a modified car rather than stock car with stock ECU

- where did they get thir fuel from? local petrol station vs. directly from the supplier --> they could have measured the octane rating themselves to get the exact octane rating of the fuel they used rather than go by the advertised octane

my conclusion:

it was a fine "experiment", but was not conclusive enough to base anything solid on

just my 2c

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now



  • Similar Content

  • Latest Posts

    • Can perhaps see how the R33 appreciators would think so.  
    • Thanks, I removed the fuse and the relay from the car and made my own circuit with them to test them with a test bulb.  I will look for the wiring diagram and go from there.
    • Jdm DC2R is also nice for a FF car compared to the regular hatches of the time.
    • Now that the break-in period for both clutch and transmission is nearly over I'd like to give some tips before I forget about everything that happened, also for anyone searching up how to do this job in the future: You will need at least 6 ton jack stands at full extension. I would go as far as to say maybe consider 12 ton jack stands because the height of the transmission + the Harbor Freight hydraulic platform-style transmission jack was enough that it was an absolute PITA getting the transmission out from under the car and back in. The top edge of the bellhousing wants to contact the subframe and oil pan and if you're doing this on the floor forget about trying to lift this transmission off the ground and onto a transmission jack from under the car. Also do not try to use a scissor jack transmission lift. You have to rotate the damn thing in-place on the transmission jack which is hard enough with an adjustable platform and a transmission cradle that will mostly keep the transmission from rolling off the jack but on a scissor lift with a tiny non-adjustable platform? Forget it. Use penetrating oil on the driveshaft bolts. I highly recommend getting a thin 6 point combination (box end + open end) wrench for both the rear driveshaft and front driveshaft and a wrench extension. These bolts are on tight with very little space to work with and those two things together made a massive difference. Even a high torque impact wrench is just the wrong tool for the job here and didn't do what I needed it to do. If your starter bolts aren't seized in place for whatever reason you can in fact snake in a 3/8 inch ratchet + 6 point standard chrome socket up in there and "just" remove the bolts for the starter. Or at least I could. It is entirely by feel, you can barely fit it in, you can barely turn the stupid ratchet, but it is possible. Pull the front pipe/downpipe before you attempt to remove the transmission. In theory you don't have to, in practice just do it.  When pulling the transmission on the way out you don't have to undo all the bolts holding the rear driveshaft to the chassis like the center support bearing and the rear tunnel reinforcement bar but putting the transmission back in I highly recommend doing this because it will let you raise the transmission without constantly dealing with the driveshaft interfering in one way or another. I undid the bottom of the engine mount but I honestly don't know that it helped anything. If you do this make sure you put a towel on the back of the valve cover to keep the engine from smashing all the pipes on the firewall. Once the transmission has been pulled back far enough to clear the dowels you need to twist it in place clockwise if you're sitting behind the transmission. This will rotate the starter down towards the ground. The starter bump seems like it might clear if you twist the transmission the other way but it definitely won't. I have scraped the shit out of my transmission tunnel trying so learn from my mistake. You will need a center punch and an appropriate size drill bit and screw to pull the rear main seal. Then use vice grips and preferably a slide hammer attachment for those vice grips to yank the seal out. Do not let the drill or screw contact any part of the crank and clean the engine carefully after removing the seal to avoid getting metal fragments into the engine. I used a Slide Hammer and Bearing Puller Set, 5 Piece from Harbor Freight to pull the old pilot bearing. The "wet paper towel" trick sucked and just got dirty clutch water everywhere. Buy the tool or borrow it from a friend and save yourself the pain. It comes right out. Mine was very worn compared to the new one and it was starting to show cracks. Soak it in engine oil for a day in case yours has lost all of the oil to the plastic bag it comes in. You may be tempted to get the Nismo aftermarket pilot bearing but local mechanics have told me that they fail prematurely and if they do fail they do far more damage than a failed OEM pilot bushing. I mentioned this before but the Super Coppermix Twin clutch friction disks are in fact directional. The subtle coning of the fingers in both cases should be facing towards the center of the hub. So the coning on the rearmost disk closest to the pressure plate should go towards the engine, and the one closest to the flywheel should be flipped the other way. Otherwise when you torque down the pressure plate it will be warped and if you attempt to drive it like this it will make a very nasty grinding noise. Also, there is in fact an orientation to the washers for the pressure plate if you don't want to damage the anodizing. Rounded side of the washer faces the pressure plate. The flat side faces the bolt head. Pulling the transmission from the transfer case you need to be extremely careful with the shift cover plate. This part is discontinued. Try your best to avoid damaging the mating surfaces or breaking the pry points. I used a dead blow rubber hammer after removing the bolts to smack it sideways to slide it off the RTV the previous mechanic applied. I recommend using gasket dressing on the OEM paper gasket to try and keep the ATF from leaking out of that surface which seems to be a perpetual problem. Undoing the shifter rod end is an absolute PITA. Get a set of roll pin punches. Those are mandatory for this. Also I strongly, strongly recommend getting a palm nailer that will fit your roll pin punch. Also, put a clean (emphasis on clean) towel wrapped around the back end of the roll pin to keep it from shooting into the transfer case so you can spend a good hour or two with a magnet on a stick getting it out. Do not damage the shifter rod end either because those are discontinued as well. Do not use aftermarket flywheel bolts. Or if you do, make sure they are exactly the same dimensions as OEM before you go to install them. I have seen people mention that they got the wrong bolts and it meant having to do the job again. High torque impact wrench makes removal easy. I used some combination of a pry bar and flathead screwdriver to keep the flywheel from turning but consider just buying a proper flywheel lock instead. Just buy the OS Giken clutch alignment tool from RHDJapan. I hated the plastic alignment tool and you will never be confident this thing will work as intended. Don't forget to install the Nismo provided clutch fork boot. Otherwise it will make unearthly noises when you press the clutch pedal as it says on the little installation sheet in Japanese. Also, on both initial disassembly and assembly you must follow torque sequence for the pressure plate bolts. For some reason the Nismo directions tell you to put in the smaller 3 bolts last. I would not do this. Fully insert and thread those bolts to the end first, then tighten the other larger pressure plate bolts according to torque sequence. Then at the end you can also torque these 3 smaller bolts. Doing it the other way can cause these bolts to bind and the whole thing won't fit as it should. Hope this helps someone out there.
×
×
  • Create New...