Whiteline Adj. Swaybars Settings?

[NickR33]

Hi guys,

I recently bought some of the whiteline adj. swaybars from SK's group buy (for R33 GTSt) and was after some comments from people who have done the same. Some of the questions that come to mind are:

What settings are people running for daily?

and for the track (while on road rubber)?

Has anyone set them for motorkhanas (while on road rubber)?

I am assuming they don't make much of a difference for drag?

Is it possible to set them up too hard and have problems on the street (eg bad tyre wear)?

Any comments are welcome. Cheers

[Sydneykid]

  NickR33 said:

Hi guys,

I recently bought some of the whiteline adj. swaybars from SK's group buy (for R33 GTSt) and was after some comments from people who have done the same. Some of the questions that come to mind are:

1. What settings are people running for daily?

2. for the track (while on road rubber)?

3. Has anyone set them for motorkhanas (while on road rubber)?

4. I am assuming they don't make much of a difference for drag?

5. Is it possible to set them up too hard and have problems on the street (eg bad tyre wear)?

Any comments are welcome. Cheers

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I'll kick it off, my suggestions follow;

1. Full soft front and rear, that is still a lot of antiroll.

2. Very much dependant on the which track and the conditions on the day, how slippery the track is, what the ambient temperature is, whether it is raining or not etc. Generally speaking the rear stays on full soft and the front is 2 settings up from full soft (the middle setting). That's on a GTST with plenty of power, hence oversteer on demand. If you find understeer is a problem then go a bit harder in the rear bar settings.

3. Full soft on the front and middle setting on the rear, sometimes full hard for tight courses.

4. Full soft on the rear, I have even disconnected one link on the rear just to be sure that there is minimal rear antiroll for maximium traction.

5. Yes, traction on bumpy surface can be an issue. I would never run as much rear bar on the street as I do on the circuit, you never know when it is going to rain or just get slippery. Tyre wear, I don't think that is an issue, even for excessive antiroll. I guess it could be argued that if there is too much negative camber (for the road) and run excessive antiroll it could increase the tyre wear. But it would be more a camber issue than an roll bar setting problem.

Hope that was of some help

Cheers

[NickR33]

thanks SK I was just going to pm you but I thought I would throw it in the forum and everyone could benefit... cheers

[yogi000]

thanks for that info sk.

i've got the bars with two holes at each end, softest is the end holes???

cheers

[Sydneykid]

  yogi000 said:

thanks for that info sk.

i've got the bars with two holes at each end, softest is the end holes???

cheers

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Yep, more leverage = lower bar rate

Two holes on each arm = 3 settings as follows;

1 / 1 softest

1 / 2 middle

2 / 2 hardest

For the guys with 3 holes per arm = 5 settings as follows;

1 / 1 softest

1 / 2

2 / 2 middle

2 / 3

3 / 3 hardest

cheers

[RAZOR32]

So Sk, the non Adjustable white line sway bars, what are they set at

1/1 softest? sorry for the dumb Question SK

Cheers Raymond

[Sydneykid]

  RAZOR32 said:

So Sk, the non Adjustable white line sway bars, what are they set at

1/1 softest? sorry for the dumb Question SK

Cheers Raymond

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

The rate of the non adjustable bars is determined by the diameter of the bar used. If you want to compare a 24 mm fixed bar with a 24 mm adjustable bar, then the fixed bar is equivalent to full soft on the adjustable bar. But you could use a 27mm fixed bar and compared to a 24 mm adjustable bar it would be equivalent to the hardest setting.

cheers

[hrd-hr30]

  Sydneykid said:

Yep, more leverage = lower bar rate

Two holes on each arm = 3 settings as follows;

1 / 1 softest

1 / 2 middle

2 / 2 hardest

For the guys with 3 holes per arm = 5 settings as follows;

1 / 1 softest

1 / 2

2 / 2 middle

2 / 3

3 / 3  hardest

cheers

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

The important part of the swaybar that determines its (spring) rate is the length of the leverage arm from the chassis mounting point to the end of the arm mounting point. If you adjust one side at a time, that will leave you with different rates on each side, which is probably not what most people are after, although it can be used to make allowances for a crossweight problem that cannot be rectified.

on my Datsun 1200 coupe IPRA car, my rear bar is adjusted by moving the attachment points on the diff (they're affixed with a U bolt arrangement) inwards or outwards. This has a dramatic effect on the balance of the car. If it was the length of the bar from one end of one arm to the other that mattered, the rate would not be affected by changing the mounting points on the diff housing.

a bar with 3 holes per arm has 3 settings, not 5.

[Sydneykid]

  hrd-hr30 said:

The important part of the swaybar that determines its (spring) rate is the length of the leverage arm from the chassis mounting point to the end of the arm mounting point. If you adjust one side at a time, that will leave you with different rates on each side, which is probably not what most people are after, although it can be used to make allowances for a crossweight problem that cannot be rectified.

on my Datsun 1200 coupe IPRA car, my rear bar is adjusted by moving the attachment points on the diff (they're affixed with a U bolt arrangement) inwards or outwards. This has a dramatic effect on the balance of the car. If it was the length of the bar from one end of one arm to the other that mattered, the rate would not be affected by changing the mounting points on the diff housing.

a bar with 3 holes per arm has 3 settings, not 5.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

OOOO goody, I feel a heavy discussion about to happen.

What you are describing (by moving the stabiliser mounts on the diff) is leverage effect on the tyre. As you move the stabiliser bar mounting points, the tyre has a longer (or shorter leverage) action on the bar. You are not changing the stabiliser bar rate itself.

A stabiliser bar is a pass through device, it passes the spring rate from one wheel to the other (on the same axle) via free rotation through the bushes. So whether you shorten or lengthen one arm (of the stabiliser bar) or both, it doesn't matter. The effect is passed from one tyre to the other, so all that matters is the total length of the bar.

There is a mild effect of the slightly different linkage angle, but that is small enough to be ignored for this excercise.

Take a look at a V8Supercar stabiliser bar and you will find it only has a rotator on one arm to change the antiroll.

cheers

Edited November 3, 2005 by Sydneykid

[GTRgeoff]

Ever get the feeling the town fool has walked into the bar lookin for a gunfight, and only bought his capgun? Sorry Harry, but you're wrong.

SK, explain again why 1/3 isn't used as well.

On the Indy cars I noticed they use a blade anti roll bar and it rotates to change the second moment of area -> the flexural rigidity changes.

I've just set mine to fully soft f/r on the GTR to ovecome some oversteer on the joyful roundabouts around here.

[hrd-hr30]

V8 Supercars don't use blade arms on both ends, fitted onto a splined torsion bar?

if you make changes on one side of the bar, it will have an assymetric (sp?) affect to the cars handling. ie it will behave differently on right and left hand corners. you also run the risk of preloading the bar (but this will depend entirely on the application) which will also cause an assymetric affect .

[GTRgeoff]

It would be too complex to fit the rotator on each end and achieve accurate control over the bar rate. Was only one end last time I was under the Ozemail cars.

The bar has an overall resistance to flexure. Large differences would cause some issues on an extremely nervous car.

[hrd-hr30]

a sway bar is basically a torsion bar operated by the arms at either end. It is only the middle part of the bar that actually twists and provides the torsion bar (or spring) effect. the arms do not. The length of each arm is critical to the wheel rate at each side. The centre torsion part of the bar does not magically know that it is set up different on each side and the same force will be applied equally (and oppositely) to each arm. The rate at each wheel is determined by the length of the lever arm on each side. definitely assymetric affect, fool.

The blade bar is different because the length of the lever arm on each side does not change.

[Sydneykid]

  hrd-hr30 said:

a sway bar is basically a torsion bar operated by the arms at either end. It is only the middle part of the bar that actually twists and provides the torsion bar (or spring) effect. the arms do not. The length of each arm is critical to the wheel rate at each side. The centre torsion part of the bar does not magically know that it is set up different on each side and the same force will be applied equally (and oppositely) to each arm. The rate at each wheel is determined by the length of the lever arm on each side. definitely assymetric affect, fool.

The blade bar is different because the length of the lever arm on each side does not change.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Don't think of a stabiliser like it is a torsion bar (spring) connected to the wheel at one end and the chassis at the other end. You can't look at a stabiliser bar as if it is locked to the chassis (or rear axle) simpy because it isn't, it is free to rotate (via the bushes). Think of it as a torsion bar with the ends connected to the wheels, the anti roll is the effect between the wheels. The "middle" of the bar is irrelevant.

As I said in the previous post, don't get hung up the linkage angles. They do have an effect, but it is minor in this case.

Geoff has been under the Ozemail Falcons and I have been under the GRM Commodoors (and Monaros) and I can assure that you they only have an adjuster on one side of both front and rear stabiliser bars. For exactly the reason Geoff posted, it would be almost imposssible to synchronise the adjustment as it is done on the move, with the suspension working.

cheers

Edited November 3, 2005 by Sydneykid

[hrd-hr30]

  Sydneykid said:

Don't think of a stabiliser like it is a torsion bar (spring) connected to the wheel at one end and the chassis at the other end.  You can't look at a stabiliser bar as if it is locked to the chassis (or rear axle) simpy because it isn't, it is free to rotate (via the bushes).  Think of it as a torsion bar with the ends connected to the wheels, the anti roll is the effect between the wheels.  The "middle" of the bar is irrelevant.

the middle of the bar is not irrelevant, the middle of the bar is the only part that twists, providing the spring effect. I don't see what point you're trying to make anyway. I'm well aware that the bar is free to twist in the centre D shackle mounts. I don't see how you could interpret what I said as thinking the bar is "locked to the chassis (or rear axle)"...

  hrd-hr30 said:

a sway bar is basically a torsion bar operated by the arms at either end. It is only the middle part of the bar that actually twists and provides the torsion bar (or spring) effect. the arms do not.

how did you come up with the idea that I think the centre of the bar is locked to anything? or didn't you bother to read that post?

  Sydneykid said:

As I said in the previous post, don't get hung up the linkage angles.  They do have an effect, but it is minor in this case.

not the angle of the linkages, the length of the lever arms that transfer the force geneated by the bar to the wheels. Although as I mentioned earlier, having each linkage at a diffeent angle (ie in a different hole) might also pre-load the bar, depending on the application. But don't get hung up on that, its likely to be muh less of an issue than the assymetric effect your introducing by having unequal length lever arms on each side when using different holes on each side.

  Sydneykid said:

Geoff has been under the Ozemail Falcons and I have been under the GRM Commodoors (and Monaros) and I can assure that you they only have an adjuster on one side of both front and rear stabiliser bars.  For exactly the reason Geoff posted, it would be almost imposssible to synchronise the adjustment as it is done on the move, with the suspension working.

cheers

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

forget the blade type adjustable sway bar, it is totally irellevant to the 3 hole adjustable bars that this thread is about, as I explained above. And name dropping doesn't make you guys right...

[Downforce]

I love a good argument

I think Harry obviously knows what he's talking about and understands the concepts applied here.

[Sydneykid]

  hrd-hr30 said:

the middle of the bar is not irrelevant, the middle of the bar is the only part that twists, providing the spring effect. I don't see what point you're trying to make anyway. I'm well aware that the bar is free to twist in the centre D shackle mounts. I don't see how you could interpret what I said as thinking the bar is "locked to the chassis (or rear axle)"...

how did you come up with the idea that I think the centre of the bar is locked to anything? or didn't you bother to read that post?

not the angle of the linkages, the length of the lever arms that transfer the force geneated by the bar to the wheels. Although as I mentioned earlier, having each linkage at a diffeent angle (ie in a different hole) might also pre-load the bar, depending on the application. But don't get hung up on that, its likely to be muh less of an issue than the assymetric effect your introducing by having unequal length lever arms on each side when using different holes on each side.

forget the blade type adjustable sway bar, it is totally irellevant to the 3 hole adjustable bars that this thread is about, as I explained above. And name dropping doesn't make you guys right...

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Bit of missenterpretation going on here, let me make it quite clear I have had this discussion with litterly hundreds of people. Eventually most of them go "MMMM ....AAAH ... I get it!". All I am trying to do is to get you to that point. I don't know what you know or what you don't know, so unfortunately I have to assume that everything needs to be explained. I am sorry if that offends, but I don't know of any other way.

Please let me make sure that we understand each other;

1. You now agree that it is OK to have a rotating adjuster on only one side of the stabiliser bar. That it doesn't lead to stagger in the bar rates. Because I got the feeling that you didn't believe that was the case previously. Because you posted this;

  Quote

if you make changes on one side of the bar, it will have an assymetric (sp?) affect to the cars handling. ie it will behave differently on right and left hand corners

I have found that once people grasp this concept the rest is easy. That's why I spent a bit of time (and a few words) on it in the previous post and used a couple of real world examples to prove the point, sorry if it appeared to be name dropping, that was not my intention.

2. This means the effect of stiffening one arm (connected to one wheel) is passed to the other arm (connected to the other wheel). This results in a uniform (side to side) increase in anti roll. Is that correct?

2. Do you agree that shortening the arms decreases the leverage (of the wheel movement) on the bar ? Hence increases the anti roll?

3. Now if you agree with #1, #2 and #3, please tell me why you think that decreasing the leverage on one arm (connected to one wheel) is not passed to the other arm (connected to the other wheel)?

4. In conclusion, if the stiffness increase (due to less leverage) is passed from one wheel to the other, then why would the anti roll rates be different side to side?

Obviously I am using the example of stiffness, less leverage and anti roll increases, but it equally applies to softening, more leverage and anti roll decreases.

Even after a healthy discussion, some are not believers and that's OK by me. As long as I have done all I can to explain the process, I can rest easy.

cheers

Edited November 3, 2005 by Sydneykid

[hrd-hr30]

I never disagreed that a blade on one side would work. I apologise if that was not clear. I was simply surprised that the V8s would do it that way, as my exposure to these is mainly with open wheelers, and they have had blade type adjusters on both sides. It is no great feat of engineering to adjust them both equally. Most tin tops (sport sedans) use conventioal sliding adjustments on sway bars, for ease of manufacturing and costs. Obviously these are not in-car adjustable.

The effects you are describing only hold true for the blade type adjustable bar, which is not what this thread is about. The problem with your reasoning, Sydneykid is that you don't see the difference between the blade adjuster and the multi-hole adjuster. You are getting ahead of yourself without understanding a basic premise of swaybar operation.

forget the blade type adjuster, it is not relevant to the discussion about multi-hole adjustable bars. I'll say it agan for the cheap seats, with a little further clarification...

a (conventional tubular) sway bar is basically a torsion bar operated by the arms at either end. It is only the middle part of the bar that actually twists and provides the torsion bar (or spring) effect. the arms do not. (At the risk of confusing the subject even more, the arms my flex somewhat but that is not the primary spring effect of the sway bar, and this effect nevertheless conforms to this same reasoning). The length of each arm is critical to the wheel rate at each side. The centre torsion part of the bar does not magically know that it is set up different on each side, it can only apply the same force equally (and oppositely) to each arm. The effect of that force at each wheel is determined by the length of the lever arm on each side. It will definitely have an assymetric affect if you have different length lever arms each side. To deny this is to say that the bar is applying diffenent forces to each lever arm.

The blade bar is different because the length of the lever arm on each side does not change, and the blade arm become part of the spring effect of the bar. This is quite different to a conventional tubular bar with multi-hole adjustment.

[GTRgeoff]

Just to try help clarify some more for the watchers (and Matt, you barely understand brake bleeding and balance let alone handling setup so it's a bit rich you magnanimously passing judgement on who knows what), the anti roll bar operates on a principle of torque arms, which are attached to springs and dampers with a mass attached. As the car rolls, one side of the bar lowers, and the other is raised. Because of the contiguous nature of the bar, the same torque is seen at both sides of the bar.

A sway bar should not be so great in spring rate that it affects the primary spring and damping rate (although I run a massive 30mm rear on my laser lynx for my own fun), as this can cause some concerns on an extremely responsive chassis such as Harry's lightweight 1200 Improved Production car. Hence it is entirely acceptable to operate slightly different torque arm lengths, and is in fact a benefit for adjusting setups on certain track configurations. Some of the literature I have enjoyed on oval track setup has opened my eyes when I always sought balance.

With a distant history in open wheelers and sports sedans I can see Harry's pov on their configurations, as they are sensitive chassis' also, but for normal sedans that see occasional track there is no issue to run an offset hole. Open wheelers are much more compact as well so configuring for dual blade roll bars is a snack (and usually the budgets are pretty high as well).

Also a spring may not be the exact rate specified, so if the car performs a little different side to side you can then shorten or extend that side to make up the spring rate. Ultimately we'd all prefer blades for adjustment on the run but costs are a killer.

ff topic, I'm heading to Brisbane next year and looking at IPRA but their website is a bit weak on detail. Do you have any leads Harry? Comp numbers, cars running and costs?

[hrd-hr30]

  GTRgeoff said:

With a distant history in open wheelers and sports sedans I can see Harry's pov on their configurations, as they are sensitive chassis' also, but for normal sedans that see occasional track there is no issue to run an offset hole. Open wheelers are much more compact as well so configuring for dual blade roll bars is a snack (and usually the budgets are pretty high as well).

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

so you are saying the adjustment holes in the Whiteline bars are all wank then? ie it does not make a noticeable difference to the rate of the bar? That is the only way that it wouldn't produce a noticeably different effect on one side to the other...

  GTRgeoff said:

off topic, I'm heading to Brisbane next year and looking at IPRA but their website is a bit weak on detail. Do you have any leads Harry? Comp numbers, cars running and costs?

the website is ancient. Just contact the QLD IPRA Assoc. What car are you planning to run?

Numbers are not as high as NSW. QLD still have combined under and overs grids instead of seperate races. I don't know, nearly 30 car grids or something... Obviously dominated by early rotaries as it is everywhere else. Adam Ubergang (sp?) is the runaway leader up here in an RX7. its daylight back to 2nd. Mainly early model cars running up here but there's a few WRX's this year too.

Costs? well the same as anywhere else really... as much or as little as you want to spend? You could have had my 1200 for $5000 minus engine and box if you were quick enough. I just sold it to a guy in SA.