To Rb25 Or Not To Rb25

[Style32]

Hey everyone its getting close to crunch time and im after an opinion, i currently own a Series 1 R33 skyline and am wondering, im aiming for big power, 350kw+ is it worth while to go with the RB25 or shall i look into an RB26 Conversion. Any comments would be greatly appreciated. im wanting to make this thing into a monster.

[gtst4d]

have a look at the rb30 thread but what ever you do it is going to cost a bomb good luck

[Style32]

yeah i was checking it out the last couple of days. im off to my mechanic tommorow to get some advice. am i setting myself up for dissapointment?

[paulr33]

how much money do you have

what is your power target

why do u want that much power? street? track?

[Style32]

Im willing to put aside 10000 give or take a couple grand. id be hoping for the 400kw mark or as close as possible budget willing. the car will not be a daily driver just a weekend toy. a mate has 315kw rx3 and i cant get over the feeling of it on boost. got bit by the kw bug

[R31Nismoid]

350+ is going to be over a $15,000 adventune at the very least.

Good luck, ive been and dabbled... and doing so again.

its all the small things like Diff/clutchs and stuff that add up more so that the motor build itself

[R31Nismoid]

ah, you posted inbetween me... 10k unfortunately will only get you a 350rwkw motor, and maybe the turbo/manifold to go with it.

nothing else thats going to support it... ECU's/diff/clutch/coolers etc etc long list

cheers.

[Style32]

thanks for that, im off tommorow to get an idea off what the damage is gonna be. ill see how it goes, when everything gets up and going ill keep you all posted as it happens. im keen to see how much these motors will throw out for a reasonable amount of money. im attempting to keep the engine around the 10 mark as other areas need attention also. 350kw is quite a bit im sure i could find a way to live with it .

[B33st]

This is a good start!

[turbo87]

Mate did 350rwkw as follows:

rb30 block $100

Forged pistons $1400

Machining + head service $1000

Cams $1400

GT3540 700hp $1800

Tial wastegate $550

Injectors $1200

EMS Stinger $1100

ARP Rod bolts $???

Plus obviously gaskets, bearings,timing belt, intercooler, tuning and the big part, labour if you don't do it yourself.

The standard manifolds are capable at that power, just need to weld a wastegate on top.

[R31Nismoid]

what about all the labour to fit the 25 head to the 30 block.

motor in/out etc etc

dont forget to include all that... time is most certainly money in all cases.

[Dee 33]

If you get a workshop to do all the work it will cost you $10k to get 250rwkw.

Turbo - $2k + $500 (new lines, installation)

ECU - $1k + $500 (tuning)

Cooler - $1k + $300 (install)

Injectors - $1k + $300 (install)

Exhaust - $1500 (decent full exhaust from turbo)

Fuel Pump - $400 (including install)

New Bov - $300 (decent one)

Air filter - $300 (decent one with CAI and downpipe to turbo + install)

Clutch - $1k (decent one)

= $10,100 for the above. This is with reasonable good estimations on prices for reasonable good parts.

That's with a 2k turbo. Make this a GT-RS and you're up for more. This is using stock manifold and an internally gated turbo. Use a PFC and you'll be up for an AFM as well.

Heading for 300rwkw add cams onto that price and start looking at a high mount manifold and externally gated turbo.

Hope you have mates. Otherwise there's no way you're getting 350rwkw without at least another $10k.

[SLY33]

what power do you currently have? bear in mind that over 300rwkw with a 2.5litre is going to give you big traction problems, let alone a 3litre!

if your down in SA in the near future your welcome to come for a spin in my GTS-t. Its getting a rebuilt 25 dropped in as we speak, and should have at least 280+rwkw with all the response youd want. RWD: there is a point at which more power will = slower on the street, unless you have the room to wind out 3rd gear! Once you get over 300rwkw those extra kw's start to cost big dollars, whereas you could possibly keep to a decent budget under 300rwkw. my opinion if you want 350+rwkw, sell your car, buy a GTR and start from there! my 2c

[Tangles]

Grab a secondhand Fireblade / R1 / GSX1000R / ZX10R and never look back!

What Im saying is, maybe look into the 'weight' of the car, ie power to weight ratio. Bring the weight down and the usefullness of the power goes up........

Brendan

[R31Nismoid]

Ok, i've done a similar list in the past but cant find it. So here comes a nice long, but at least its high detail

RRP Prices, with the "Trade/cheaper/2nd hand parts" prices in brackets where applicable

This is also assuming you are paying for it to be done, rather than doing yourself. You can save money if you DIY, but make sure you are 100% on it as you dont wanna stuff it up.

Prices may vary buy a few hundred, but mine wont be too far off as i did most it all earlier this year

Rebuild, inclu.

Pistons, GTR Rods/prepping - $2000

Machining, N1Oil pump, Water Pump, Head mods, Rod bolts, Gaskets, New hoses all round, Motor in/out of car, GTR BOV's, and General labour including fitting of bolt on parts/welding cooler piping - $6000 ($3000 DIY)

Total for motor side of it, no bolt ons $8000 ($5000 DIY)

Mostly bolt on goodies

Turbo GT35 - $2300 ($1700/1800 trade, $1500 2nd hand)

External Gate & Bleed valve - $700 ($550/600 trade/mates rate/2nd hand)

Cams - $700

Manifold - $1100/$1300 ($900 trade/mates rate/2nd hand)

Dump/pipe work - $400

Cooler - $700 ($400 for cheaper ones)

Total - $6200 ($4600)

Now the other bits to make it all work

PowerFC - $1100

z32 AFM - $450 ($300 2nd hand)

Injectors, 740cc Nismo - $960

Lightweight Flywheel/Twin plate - $1700-$2000

Shimmed/modded Diff - $800

Tuning/R&D - $600

Fuel Pump $350

Total - $6160 ($5950)

Grand Tot - $20,260 ($15,550)

Feel free to cut out bits and pieces you already have, i just assume the car is pretty standard, maybe and exhaust but not a lot more.

Seems like a lot of money doesnt it?

350rwkw isnt cheap. Using an RB25 or an RB26, both of which really need a rebuild for reliability @ 350rwkw.

NOTE:

1) I would use new parts (personal preference), and only decent parts, not something half baked or not responsive etc.

If you spending big $$$ you do it right the first time as i learnt the $$$ way

2) This is not including the price you might have to pay on Cutsoms Duties if Customs grab your imported goods on thier way in.

Hope that gives everyone some more discussion material

My suggestion to you, settle for 260rwkw or there abouts and save yourself a 5 figure adventure.

260rwkw makes a VERY fast streeter.

-ash

[StageZilla]

Ok, i've done a similar list in the past but cant find it. So here comes a nice long, but at least its high detail

RRP Prices, with the "Trade/cheaper/2nd hand parts" prices in brackets where applicable

This is also assuming you are paying for it to be done, rather than doing yourself. You can save money if you DIY, but make sure you are 100% on it as you dont wanna stuff it up.

Prices may vary buy a few hundred, but mine wont be too far off as i did most it all earlier this year

Rebuild, inclu.

Pistons, GTR Rods/prepping - $2000

Machining, N1Oil pump, Water Pump, Head mods, Rod bolts, Gaskets, New hoses all round, Motor in/out of car, GTR BOV's, and General labour including fitting of bolt on parts/welding cooler piping - $6000  ($3000 DIY)

Total for motor side of it, no bolt ons $8000  ($5000 DIY)

Mostly bolt on goodies

Turbo GT35 - $2300  ($1700/1800 trade, $1500 2nd hand)

External Gate & Bleed valve - $700 ($550/600 trade/mates rate/2nd hand)

Cams - $700

Manifold - $1100/$1300 ($900 trade/mates rate/2nd hand)

Dump/pipe work - $400

Cooler - $700 ($400 for cheaper ones)

Total - $6200  ($4600)

Now the other bits to make it all work

PowerFC -  $1100

z32 AFM - $450 ($300 2nd hand)

Injectors, 740cc Nismo - $960

Lightweight Flywheel/Twin plate - $1700-$2000

Shimmed/modded Diff  - $800

Tuning/R&D - $600

Fuel Pump $350

Total - $6160  ($5950)

Grand Tot - $20,260  ($15,550)

Feel free to cut out bits and pieces you already have, i just assume the car is pretty standard, maybe and exhaust but not a lot more.

Seems like a lot of money doesnt it? 

350rwkw isnt cheap. Using an RB25 or an RB26, both of which really need a rebuild for reliability @ 350rwkw.

NOTE:

1) I would use new parts (personal preference), and only decent parts, not something half baked or not responsive etc.

If you spending big $$$ you do it right the first time as i learnt the $$$ way

2) This is not including the price you might have to pay on Cutsoms Duties if Customs grab your imported goods on thier way in.

Hope that gives everyone some more discussion material

My suggestion to you, settle for 260rwkw or there abouts and save yourself a 5 figure adventure.

260rwkw makes a VERY fast streeter.

-ash

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

good info, it aint cheap to build a motor, and people who claim i made 400rwkw with under 10K etc are what make people have unrealistic expectations, but as ash said its the little things that add up bloody quickly.

i reckon on my build ive spent over 2K on stuff i didnt even think about (well i thought oh $500 max will cover em all), like clamps, silicone hose, fuel lines, nuts and bolts, braided line, etc etc.

labour is the killer, thankfully i havent spent much in labour, except machining of head and block. oh and engine tuning when its up and running.

10K engine might be great with 350rwkw, but then ya got the diff, clutch, exhuast, bov, intercooler, cooler piping, fuel pumps, and i could go on forever.

rebuilds and the word "budget" dont seem to goto together to well in my experience

mine is heading quickly towards 30K just in parts, and it aint even assembled yet, so theres more $$$ yet on bits and pieces i aint allowed for B)

[R31Nismoid]

its always the small things Brad, i'd easily put yours down @ 30k.

Like i also had a turbo that ended up having a bung cartirdge (even brand new)

Just one of those things thats just another... $1500 later...

Also remember, there is generally no warranty on performance, if shit fails after the build, you fork out again. Generally a workshop will help you out as much as they can, but backyard - fork out

Places like Garrett and stuff that "say" thier turbos are warranty covered, but isnt always true IMO.

They are highly conditionally based in terms of what they will/wont class as warranty. Also the turn-around time is another issue

My turbo's demise was Garretts fault, but trying to prove it would cost more than the $1500 to replace it all, not to mention the 6 weeks i'd already spent arguing with em and just wanted my car back

[Style32]

hey all i went and spoke to my mech today, B33ST that link you gave was interesting. i showed wat was done to the engine to him and according to him if everything checks out that would be a much cheaper option. after a bit of research today and from all your input i have decided to extend the budget for the engine, although this will take longer to get everything going best to do it right now and save me a pain in the arse later. ill probably put aside 10000 for the motor excluding bolt on goodies. at this stage the engine has become my primary concern as i want it out of the way and get all the grimy stuff out of the way before it goes to the panel beater. atm i have an AVC-R, Blitz FMIC, 3.5" exhaust turbo back, K&N Pod filter and thats pretty much it really. i dont expect that the fmic will last long with an engine upgrade.

[StageZilla]

its always the small things Brad, i'd easily put yours down @ 30k.

Like i also had a turbo that ended up having a bung cartirdge (even brand new)

Just one of those things thats just another... $1500 later...

Also remember, there is generally no warranty on performance, if shit fails after the build, you fork out again. Generally a workshop will help you out as much as they can, but backyard - fork out

Places like Garrett and stuff that "say" thier turbos are warranty covered, but isnt always true IMO.

They are highly conditionally based in terms of what they will/wont class as warranty. Also the turn-around time is another issue

My turbo's demise was Garretts fault, but trying to prove it would cost more than the $1500 to replace it all, not to mention the 6 weeks i'd already spent arguing with em and just wanted my car back 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

hey ash, yes certainly the warranty side of things is a total biatch, as everyone says its the other guys fault, and then vice versa, its a lose lose situation, just ends up costing cash cause of someones stuff up.

lets hope i have some good luck with the build, cause in the 12 months of owning the stagea ive had nuthin but trouble and only used it about 3-4 weeks all up and 2 weeks was with the stock running gear (rb25/auto).

cheers

Brad

[R31Nismoid]

hey all i went and spoke to my mech today, B33ST that link you gave was interesting. i showed wat was done to the engine to him and according to him if everything checks out that would be a much cheaper option.

Just remember it has no electrics on it what so ever, plenum/throttle bodies, fuel rail etc...

So all you are really doing is skipping part 1 of the pricing list above and adding a very long list of parts your gonna have to source.

The other 2 still stand... of course

I would reccomend changing the cams, they will be very rough for a street car.

Alternatively you could land a complete 26 with loom for under 4k (blown) under 5.5k (running) if you shop around for a while. I got mine for 4.5k working.... that was cheaper than normal though

Just some more ideas to throw around the room