Optimax Extreme (100ron + 5% Ethanol)

[bigcarl]

i also read the article in the recent hpi magazine written by martin donnon , which basically shows an r32 gtr that has 289rwkws in shootout mode running on normal 98 ron then fuel is changed to uniteds boost 98 e10 ethanol blend and the mixtures lean right out straight away, but after a remap of ecu because the ethanol blended e10 fuel has 3.7% more oxygen the boost setting is left the same and more timing was screwed in which produced another 22rwkws. makes sense to me. think 100ron e5% would be even more power producing. any how im going to give it a shot! in conclusion yes your car will run like shit on this stuff if your running an aftermarket ecu tuned close to the edge , so you will need a remap, but if you run a non import car with stock ecu which tend to run more rich than you will probably find your car runs fine but you might as well save your money and run regular unleaded. my 50 cents.

[RANDY]

I thought Optimax was 96 or something? They stopped printing "98 ron" on their bowsers 'round here AGES ago, and MRT's fuel-comparison pretty much showed that it was on par with some 95ron fuels... Caltex Vortex 98 was the best non-ethanol performer, and above that was E10 and then aviation fuel.

So to go from 95-96ron fuel straight up to 100ron+, i'd imagine the ECU would have a hard time adjusting so rapidly. It would be interesting to see what the knock sensor and timing is doing when that happens! Might have to sus that out!

[ferni]

at club track days we stick a partial mix of racing fuel 103RON in just for saftey, just being extra careful to prevent pinging/detination... it runs fine, doubt its got anything to do with the higher RON rating...

So how much extra is the this Optimax Extreme compared to normal Optimax?

I'll use whatever fuel my tuner tells me to (and tunes the car for).... and for now its 98RON. Plus i don't have a shell fuel card

[Zahos]

E10 is great stuff... theres potential for a solid power gain over reeglar optimax.

Why would you need to retune?

You haven't said why, but you sound like you swear by Ethanol....

I never said why it is bad, or that it is bad. I said it recomended our cars dont use it, and gave my experiences with the aleged reasons why we shouldn't use it.

This is a good example of what i was talking about yesterday.... Saying ethanol mixtures in your fuel is great, without giving any reasons as to why....

You need to retune your motor though. If you expect to be able to just chuck it in and "she'll be right mate" then you are an idiot and deserve a car that runs like complete shit.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

So does every person need to retune their car when they put any fuels containing ethanol in their car. Doesn't sound very reasonable to me. Sounds idiotic to me...

And for those that are interested:

My car has been tuned for a flat 12:1 A/F ratio from around 4500 rpm onwards, and I did not dare take my car anywhere in that range when driving with that fuel.

The problems i had were:

- Would not start at times

- Would stall on idle

- Would stall and start during normal driving (2 - 3000 rpm)

I don't know how much of a difference a retune for Ethanol based fuels a car would need at idle / startup, but I'm guessing the difference would be negligable. Anyone who actually knows care to elaborate on that, as I am interested to know.

Edited November 19, 2005 by Zahos

[Zahos]

Anyway, talking to my tuner, who is very reputable, tuned my car to perfection, and everyone elses around said a few things about the 91 blend etc.

He said that if he could, he'd run STRAIGHT ethanol in his ute, car etc, he would, and the only reason some performance cars run like crap is beacuse they aren't tuned for it.

Like I said I know very little about Ethanol.... One thing I can tell you is that ethanol virtually no lubricating properties compared to unleaded fuel (which still has low lubricating properties unless it has a high sulphur content, or some other additive added), so 100% ethanol could cause all sorts of problems like damage to your fuel pump, seizure of the motor, etc....

Why dont you run 100% Ethanol, get your tuner to retune your car, then tell us what happens? If not, why?

So Zahos, pull your head out of your ass, stop believing all this shit that you read on all these websites, and learn the facts. Learn what it actually does.

ok Mr science type guy, my head is out of my arse now, and my eyes are washed, awaiting your response with what it actually does........

nissan and all of those other companies are too lazy to carry out tests, or already have and have relised that their tunes won't work....

I think many comapanies(including nissan) HAVE carried out test, thus not recomending it. They could potentially be up for law suites unless they did.... Try google, there are plenty of articles both for and against ethanol, and I think you will find most articles will tell you that you will have problems similar to what i experienced....

Here is an article i read before i posted anything detailing the problems it can cause to marine outboard engines. I did not want to post it though b/c I'm not sure of the relevancy to automotive engines.

... so instead of saying that the tunes don't work, they just say

"OMFG, ETHANOL!!11 IT'S A BAD MOFO LIKE YOUR MUM! OMFG TELL THE WOMEN AND THE KIDS!!!!11111oneoneone11!1111!!!111"

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

So you know this for sure?

Edited November 19, 2005 by Zahos

[Tangles]

Got a 'off' batch of fuel maybe?

At the end of the day, each and every motor is DIFFERENT (slightly) with tolernces etc, ie they are not 100% identical.

So it seems to unexperienced me that 1 RB25det engine may in fact run badly with this fuel, whilst another RB25det engine built on the same day might run fine with the 100Ron E-fuel.

Example, my Firebalde 919cc engine required a rebuild at 24000kms, whereas 95% of these 919cc engines are running perfect at the same usage kms. Could have been anything from a weak piston ring to a ring not installed correctly at time of manufacture.

Just a thought - BW

[Zahos]

Got a 'off' batch of fuel maybe?

possibly, I'm not ruling that out, but very unlikely b/c I filled my wifes car from the same pump, and it had no problems.

At the end of the day, each and every motor is DIFFERENT (slightly) with tolernces etc, ie they are not 100% identical.

So it seems to unexperienced me that 1 RB25det engine may in fact run badly with this fuel, whilst another RB25det engine built on the same day might run fine with the 100Ron E-fuel.

I have no idea mate, can't comment.

Could be a possibility though b/c my car runs little shitty on BP Ultimate (tried it from 3 different servo's now, and associated problems are consistent), whereas everyone else swears by it....

funny shite! someone got up on the wrong side of the bed this morning.....

Yes it is , and Yes I did

I was already shitty about someone at work arguing on something (work related) he knew nothing about, and those few responses topped it off.....

I know I'm a cranky bastard, but I have a low B/S tollerance at times...

[Tangles]

HAHAHA - good stuff mate, its all good!

Blame the soccer!

At the end of the day, youve reported your thoughts and the fact in how bad your car ran on that fuel, thats very kind of you to warn ppl's here on the forum. Cant do much more than that.

BW

[Scooby]

Pfft Nissan told us not to run unleaded back in 1980 as well....they just dont want to certify the cars for it incase anything does come up as warranty.

I'll guarantee there is no difference in the fule system of a 2004 nissan v a 2005 nissan that makes it magically OK.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Exactly. Porsche said outright 'no' also. Volkswagen - get this - said their cars will operate fine but don't recommend the use of it. WTF?

[Chris32]

Maybe the problem is due to 100 Octane, not the 5% Ethanol content?

i remember a old HPI article with martins soarer when tuning it to 102 ron Elf fuel.

He stated that there would be no benefit, and perhaps the car would run worse than with 98 octane

Also, no one answered my question before, what plugs are people running that have experienced problems?

[Zahos]

Maybe the problem is due to 100 Octane, not the 5% Ethanol content?

For an octane rating increase of 2, (opposed to regular 98RON optimax) I cant see how I could have had such problems on startup and idle. I never pushed the car past 30% throttle while i had that tank of fuel, as i was worried of any serious permanent damage.

Also, no one answered my question before, what plugs are people running that have experienced problems?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

NGK BCPR6E gapped at 0.8mm, put it 3 days before that fuel was purchased.

[RANDY]

I also read that the ethanol content acts as a cleaning agent, and will dislodge dirt and cloggage in your fuel system/injectors etc. Possibly you stuck it in, and then it dislodged dirt which then got piled up somewhere else? Checked your fuel filter lately?

In any case, if the stuff doesn't work for you, fair enough. =-]

[RANDY]

Actually... it almost sounds like one of your plugs isn't firing at all! lumpy idle?

[Zahos]

I also read that the ethanol content acts as a cleaning agent, and will dislodge dirt and cloggage in your fuel system/injectors etc. Possibly you stuck it in, and then it dislodged dirt which then got piled up somewhere else? Checked your fuel filter lately?

In any case, if the stuff doesn't work for you, fair enough. =-]

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Hey Randy,

I changed the fuel filter half way through the tank, and it made no difference.

I even chopped up the old one (which was in there just over 10,000 km), and it was relatively clean...

Actually... it almost sounds like one of your plugs isn't firing at all! lumpy idle?

The car ran fine for the 3 days before I filled up with this fuel, and it has been running perfectly for the past week and a bit since I filled up on regular optimax.

I checked most things I thought were relevant at the time, and found nothing.

I cleaned all my electrical plugs (AFM, TPS, CAS, ignitor module) with no difference there.

I cleaned the AFM hot wire.

I cleaned each coil contact point.

I unplugged my SAFC, and let the car run on the standard ECU.

Re checked the base timing was at 15deg, at 650 rpm with the AAC valve unplugged.

Visually inspected the harness at the coils / ignitor for any fatigue.

And recently (couple of months before the problem occured) had my fuel pump tested.

Seeing as the car runs just fine now, and that our other car experienced no issues when filled from the same pump, I put it down to my RB25DET being a fussy bitch.

[MattSR]

"So does every person need to retune their car when they put any fuels containing ethanol in their car. Doesn't sound very reasonable to me. Sounds idiotic to me..."

Simple - its a different fuel with a slower burn characteristic. This is why most major car manufacturers reccomend you dont use it. Newer models of cars will be tuned with this in mind and will be compatible with the new fuel.

I wouldnt say that I swear by the stuff - just that it has it uses.

The difefference is quite considerable at idle/part throttle, given the fact that your engine is now most likely running far too lean - especially with cold start where a fat micture is mandatory to get and engine running.

Taken from another forum:-

For everybody interested in this thread, go down to your local newsagent and pick up the latest High Performance Imports, with the Red silvia/180 on the front. It has a test of this fuel (page 69) in an R32 GTR. Car was fitted with low mount turbo's exhaust, dumps, injectors and power FC. BEfore results tuned to as much timing as it could take were 289rwkw, they put E10 in the car, noticed it ran MUCH leaner, as it is less dense, has to add fuel everywhere in the map, they noticed on cruise it had risen from 14.2:1 up to 15:1. Under power it also went from 12.5:1 up to and over 13:1.

This is not a bad thing overall, just don't put this stuff in your high performace car without tuning it to so=uit, as the next bit of info is the pudding. When now retuned to suit the fuel, tha car could take an extra 7 dgress of timing, and still register less overall "knocking" on the power FC warning meter, and made an extra 22rwkw when tuned to suit!! No other changes, just fuel and tune. Same car, same day. The noted that it had "similar tuning properties to other oxegenated 102-105 octane race unleaded fuels costing three times the price".

END quote

An extra 7 degrees is a BIG difference... This is why I think the fuel could have its uses.

Also taken from elsewhere:-

Australian Automobile Manufacturers

Holden

All petrol engine vehicles since 1986 will operate satisfactorily on E10 except as listed below.

The following models which do not operate satisfactorily on E10 fuel:

Apollo (1/87-7/89), Nova (2/89-7/94), Barina (1985-1994), Drover (1985-1987), Scurry (1985-1986), Astra (1984-1989).

Ford

All petrol engine vehicles since 1986 will operate satisfactorily on E10 except as listed below.

The following models may not operate satisfactorily on E10 fuel because of drivability concerns:

Focus (2002 - 2004), F-series (1986-1992), Ka (All), Maverick (1988-1993), Mondeo (All), Transit (1996 - 2004).

The following models do not operate satisfactorily on E10 fuel:

Capri (1989-1994), Courier 2.0L & 2.6L (All), Econovan (pre-2002), Festiva (All), Laser 1.3L, 1.5L & 1.6L (All), Raider (All), Telstar (All).

Mitsubishi

All petrol engine vehicles since 1986 will operate satisfactorily on E10.

Mitsubishi vehicles with carburettor fuel systems built before 1991 may experience hot fuel handling concerns and may experience a lower level of durability in some fuel system components.

Toyota

All Toyota models manufactured locally or imported by Toyota Australia since 1987 will operate satisfactorily on E10 fuel except as listed below.

The following models will not operate satisfactorily on E10 fuel due to material compatibility issues:

Camry with carburettor engines pre July 1989 and Corolla pre July 1994.

Supra - pre May 1993, Cressida - pre Feb 1993, Paseo - pre Aug 1995, Starlet - pre July 1999.

Land Cruiser - pre Aug 1992, Coaster - pre Jan 1993, Dyna - pre May 1995, Tarago - pre Oct 1996, Hilux , Hiace, & 4 Runner - pre Aug 1997, Townace - pre Dec 1998.

Vehicle Importers

Alfa Romeo

All Alfa Romeo vehicles imported since 1998 must run on minimum 95 RON fuel (premium unleaded petrol).

Post 1998 Alfa Romeo vehicles will operate satisfactorily on E5 ethanol blended petrol (European Standard EN 228). E10 ethanol blended petrol is not recommended as there are material compatibility and drivability issues. E10 may be used in emergency situations.

E10 ethanol blended petrol is not recommended for earlier model Alfa Romeo vehicles due to material compatibility issues.

Audi

All current Audi vehicles must run on minimum 95 RON fuel (premium unleaded petrol). All Audi vehicle models since 1986 will operate satisfactorily on E10 except as listed below:

Audi A3 1.8L (Engine Code 'APG' 2000 onwards) and A4 2.0L (Engine Code 'ALT' 2001 onwards) will operate satisfactorily on E5 ethanol blended petrol (European Standard EN 228). However, E10 ethanol blended petrol is not recommended for these vehicle models as there are material compatibility and drivability issues. E10 may be used in emergency situations.

Bentley

All petrol engine vehicles since 1990 will operate satisfactorily on E10.

BMW

All petrol engine vehicles since 1986 will operate satisfactorily on E10.

Citroen

All Citroen vehicles are required to run on minimum 95 RON fuel (premium unleaded petrol).

Citroen vehicles will operate satisfactorily on E5 blended petrol (European Standard EN 228). However, E10 blended petrol is not recommended because of drivability and/or material compatibility issues. E10 may be used in emergency situations.

Chrysler

All petrol engine vehicles since 1986 will operate satisfactorily on E10.

Daewoo

GMDaewoo does not recommend the use of ethanol blended petrol.

Daihatsu

The following models will operate satisfactorily on E10:

Charade (September 2004 onwards); Terios (September 2004 onwards); Copen (October 2004 onwards); Sirion (November 2004 onwards).

Honda

All Honda vehicles should use the fuel recommended in the Owner's Manual.

The following models will operate satisfactorily on E10:

Insight - 2004 onwards; Civic range (including Civic Hybrid) - 2004 onwards; S2000 - 2004 onwards; CRV - 2003 onwards; MD-X - 2003 onwards; Accord & Accord Euro - 2003 onwards.

Honda does not recommend E10 for other vehicle models because there may be drivability issues.

Hyundai

Hyundai vehicles will operate satisfactorily on E10, but if engine drivability concerns occur revert back to 100% unleaded petrol.

Ferrari

Ferrari does not recommend the use of ethanol blend petrol. E10 may be used in emergency situations.

Jaguar

All Jaguar vehicles imported and sold by Jaguar Cars Australia since 1986 will ooperate satisfactorily on unleaded petrol containing ethanol blended up to 10% (E10) provided that the fuel octane recommendations in the owner's handbook are adhered to.

To avoid any operational issues, the vehicles should also be maintained in accordance with Jaguar servicing procedures using genuine Jaguar replacement parts.

In general, some pre-1986 cars will operate on E10 ULP, however Jaguar recommends that they do not use ethanol blended petrol due to the aging of the vehicle fuel systems. It is important however that Jaguar vehicles with carburettors do not use ethanol blended petrol.

Kia

All petrol engined vehicles since 1996 will operate satisfactorily on E10 but if engine driveability concerns occur revert back to 100% unleaded petrol. Please refer to Owner' s Manual for further details.

Land Rover

All Land Rover vehicles imported and sold by Land Rover Australia since 1986 will operate satisfactorily on unleaded petrol containing ethanol blended up to 10% (E10) provided that the fuel octane recommendations in the owner's handbook are adhered to.

To avoid any operational issues, the vehicles should also be maintained in accordance with Land Rover servicing procedures using genuine Land Rover replacement parts.

In general, some pre-1986 cars will operate on E10 ULP, however Land Rover recommends that they do not use ethanol blended petrol due to the aging of the vehicle fuel systems. It is important however that Land Rover vehicles with carburettors do not use ethanol blended petrol.

Lexus

All models will operate satisfactorily on E10 except for the model listed below:

The following model will not operate satisfactorily on E10 fuel:

IS200 - pre May 2002.

Maserati

Maserati does not recommend the use of ethanol blend petrol. E10 may be used in emergency situations.

Mazda

Mazda 323 1.8L (1994 onwards), Mazda 323 2.0L (2001 onwards), Mazda2 (11/02 onwards), Mazda3 (All), Premacy (5/02 onwards), Mazda6 (8/02 onwards), 800M and Millenia (8/98 onwards), MX5 (1998 onwards); RX-8 (7/03 onwards), MPV (8/99 onwards), Tribute (All) and E-series (2002 fuel injected models onwards) vehicles will operate satisfactorily on E10.

All other models not listed above do not operate satisfactorily on E10.

Mercedes-Benz

All petrol engine vehicles since 1986 will operate satisfactorily on E10.

MG

MGF (2000 onwards), MG ZT (2002 onward) and MG TF (2002 onward) vehicles may operate satisfactorily on E10. However, use of E10 may affect engine calibration and emissions.

MGF (pre-2000) does not operate satisfactorily on E10.

MINI

All models will operate satisfactorily on E10.

Nissan

Nissan vehicles manufactured from 1 January 2004 onwards are capable of operation on ethanol-blended fuels up to E10 (10% ethanol), providing that blending of the ethanol component to the petroleum component of the fuel has been properly made at the fuel refinery (ie there is no "splash-blending" of the fuel).

For Nissan vehicles manufactured prior to 1 January 2004, Nissan Australia does not recommend the use of E10 because of drivability concerns and/or material compatibility issues.

Peugeot

All Peugeot vehicles are required to run on minimum 95 RON fuel (premium unleaded petrol).

Peugeot vehicles will operate satisfactorily on E5 blended petrol (European Standard EN 228). However, E10 blended petrol is not recommended because of drivability and/or material compatibility issues. E10 may be used in emergency situations.

Porsche

Porsche does not recommend the use of any level of ethanol blended petrol in any Porsche models.

Proton

All petrol engine vehicles since 1986 will operate satisfactorily on E10.

Rover

Rover 75 (2001 onwards) vehicles may operate satisfactorily on E10. However, use of E10 may affect engine calibration and emissions.

Renault

All petrol engine vehicles since 2001 will operate satisfactorily on E10 but Renault does not recommend its use

Rolls Royce

All petrol engine vehicles since 1990 until 2002 will operate satisfactorily on E10.

Saab

All petrol engine vehicles since 1986 will operate satisfactorily on E10.

Subaru

Subaru Liberty B4 (all year models) and Impreza WRX STI (1999 and 2000) do not operate satisfactorily on E10.

All other since MY1990 petrol engine Subaru vehicles will operate satisfactorily on E10.

Suzuki

Suzuki Alto, Mighty Boy, Wagon R+, Swift/Cino, Ignis Sport (1.5 litre requires 98RON), Sierra, Stockman, Vitara, X-90, Jimny (SOHC) and Super Carry vehicles do not operate satisfactorily on E10.

Suzuki Baleno and Baleno GTX will operate satisfactorily on E10 but Suzuki does not recommend its use in these vehicles.

Ignis (1.3 litre), Liana, Grand Vitara/XL-7, Jimny (DOHC), Carry (1.3 litre), Swift (2005 on) and APV vehicles will operate satisfactorily on E10.

Volkswagen

All Volkswagen vehicles will operate satisfactorily on E10, but Volkswagen does not recommend it.

Volvo

All Volvo vehicles imported and sold by Volvo Car Australia since 1986 will operate satisfactorily on unleaded petrol containing ethanol blended up to 10% (E10) provided that the fuel octane recommendations in the owner's handbook are adhered to.

To avoid any operational issues, the vehicles should also be maintained in accordance with Volvo servicing procedures using genuine Volvo replacement parts.

In general, some pre-1986 cars will operate on E10 ULP, however Volvo recommends that they do not use ethanol blended petrol due to the aging of the vehicle fuel systems. It is important however that Volvo vehicles with carburettors do not use ethanol blended petrol.

[MattSR]

Heres the complete thread taken from pf.com.

Theres a quote from a Dick Johnson article where he runs it through one of his V8 supercar engines as well. Very interesting read.

http://pforums.company-hosting.com/forums/...29&page=1&pp=30

Hope this clears thing up a little.

Matt

[Zahos]

The difefference is quite considerable at idle/part throttle, given the fact that your engine is now most likely running far too lean - especially with cold start where a fat micture is mandatory to get and engine running.

Sorry Matt, I dont have time to your entire post at the moment, but my A/F ratios are rich at low throttle, and low RPM. They are leaned out from 4500 (or 4200) rpm onwards, at 70% + throttle.

It's not just cold start, it stalled just as I can off the freeway after 40 mins of driving, then wouldn't start properly for about 1 minute.

[MattSR]

Have you measured this with an AF/R meter or is this the behavior the car was showing when it was last tuned with normal PULP?

[Zahos]

Have you measured this with an AF/R meter or is this the behavior the car was showing when it was last tuned with normal PULP?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

This was measured last dyno tune of the SAFC. (March this year, no modifications done sice)

The car pops a little when I hold a gear out to say 4000rpm on low throttle, then change gears, which also tells me it runs a little rich at low rpm.

There is no guessing that it runs rich at low rpm.

[Cubes]

I think yours is a freak Zahos.