Shell Optimax Extreme - 100 Octane

[Emre]

Without quoting everyone :

Yes, some race fuels use ethanol, some race cars run on %100 fuel blend ethanol.

Yes, extra 2 ron will allow you to tune the car more aggressively and will yield more power.

Yes, %5 blend is next to fark all.

However, there is a situation here which is as simple as 2+2.

-Shell releases a new fuel containing ethanol.

-Nissan Aust releases a press release stating all their pre 04 cars are not recommended to be run on a fuel containing ethanol.

So, i personally wouldn't touch this fuel on my Skyline if it was my daily commuter, not till i found out the problems using this fuel -may- cause, in long term.

If the car is used in a competitive environment like the race track, than it wouldn't be such an issue. Ethanol blend just adds to other 100 considerations you face on the track.

This is my opinion on the subject that was derived in seconds of having the facts.

[IOWNU]

As stated above, Nissan are just avoiding possible lawsuits, as you would. You reckon they researched the effects of ethanol before they released that statement......? It's smart business, cover you ass, whenever you can.

[Emre]

Argh...

Do you think Nissan Aus. released that statement just for the sake of it..?

While the majority of other car manufacturers do not see a problem with using ethanol blend fuels, are the people @ Nissan Aus. only smart ones to state otherwise...?

There is a possibility that the engineers @ Nissan would know a little more on this subject tha you and I. There obviously is/are parts that are used in the manufacturing of their vehicles that may react negatively to fuels containing ethanol. At what percentage do they react...? If you know, please enlighten us.

On the peanut analogy where a product states : "this product may contain traces of nuts", sounds a little different to "this product DOES contain ethanol"

If you were allergic to nuts, would you eat a product containing any...? A product that lists nuts as an ingredient, not one that may contain traces of some.

[Patto-]

The only actual statement I've heard from Nissan is that they don't recommend the use of E10 fuel. As far as I know they have no policy on E5 fuel and everything I've ever heard about E5 says its safe for just about any car, if not every car.

[IOWNU]

Argh...

Do you think Nissan Aus. released that statement just for the sake of it..?

While the majority of other car manufacturers do not see a problem with using ethanol blend fuels, are the people @ Nissan Aus. only smart ones to state otherwise...?

There is a possibility that the engineers @ Nissan would know a little more on this subject tha you and I. There obviously is/are parts that are used in the manufacturing of their vehicles that may react negatively to fuels containing ethanol. At what percentage do they react...? If you know, please enlighten us.

On the peanut analogy where a product states :  "this product may contain traces of nuts", sounds a little different to "this product DOES contain ethanol"

If you were allergic to nuts, would you eat a product containing any...? A product that lists nuts as an ingredient, not one that may contain traces of some.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Well most evidence suggests that E5 fuels have little impact on engines.

With a good tune, I don't see why a person should refrain from using it, it improves performance and that's the bottom line. I'll bet my bottom dollar, that there is NO difference in an 03 and 05 model car's engine, from Nissan. The only reason they are saying that it is ok for new cars, is in case it effects sales somehow. Think about it, how have they upgraded the Pulsar, Maxima etc?

Anyways, I'll wait a bit for the first test batch of lines to go through, if there are no dramas, then yeah, I'll start using it myself, if there are dead engines all over the joint, then obviously i'd refrain.

Peace.

[R31Nismoid]

The only actual statement I've heard from Nissan is that they don't recommend the use of E10 fuel. As far as I know they have no policy on E5 fuel and everything I've ever heard about E5 says its safe for just about any car, if not every car.

Ethanol is ethanol, its there or it isnt.

If Nis Aust say 10% no good, then 5% ethanol... is what, just a "nothing" ?

A warning against Ethanol is just that, its like giving a warning against alcohol.

Someone issues warning about content in spirits, but its ok to drink beers cause its a lesser percentage.

End of the day go through enough of it you'll feel the same effects

As for the NSW thread, thats a race car remember. It would be a fair portion more sensitive to any slight changes like that. You wont see that gain on a road car IMO

[adznight]

I think it's pretty basic. Jap car engines are designed and stress tested using standard high grade jap fuels. If you start mixing your fuel then I say that there is the possibility of problems. It's proven this fuel burns at different temps for starters and IMO thats a good reason to stay clear of it untill it's proven....

[Patto-]

Ethanol is ethanol, its there or it isnt.

If Nis Aust say 10% no good, then 5% ethanol... is what, just a "nothing" ?

A warning against Ethanol is just that, its like giving a warning against alcohol.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I'd like to see some proof of this statement. It seems to me your arguing that the amount of ethanol doesn't matter. Where did you get this information from?

The amount of ethanol does matter a great deal. If you don't beleive me put some Optimax Extreme in your car and run it for a year. Then put a 20% blend in and run it for a year. Trust me, you'll notice a difference.

Like I said, I have heard that even 10% is fine for most cars, and 5% will have no difference at all. I'll try to find some info that supports this, but in the meantime here is some basic information about ethanol so you won't be so scared of it. I know the media has run a pretty bad scare campaign but I 'm pretty sure you have nothing to be afraid of.

This is from the RAA:

Most metal components in fuel systems will corrode or rust in the presence of water. Ethanol increases petrol's ability to absorb water without separating and Ethanol blended petrol can therefore ‘hold’ more water and carry this through the engine. The greater the concentration of ethanol the greater the ability to ‘hold’ water.

Several studies have examined the effect of E10 on fuel tanks and fuel system components and have concluded that ethanol up to 10% does not increase corrosion in normal, everyday operation.

In older models, deposits in fuel tanks and fuel lines are occasionally loosened by E10, and the fuel filter may become plugged. This is remedied by a fuel filter change.

If very Ethanol rich fuel is used this may cause an engine to stall.

Laboratory tests have shown that blends of 20% pure Ethanol in petrol can damage some conventional automotive paint.

From the NRMA:

Research by NRMA and others has shown there are no technical combustion problems in using a 10 per cent ethanol-in-petrol blend in internal combustion-engined vehicles. However, some vehicle manufacturers have stated they will not maintain vehicle warranty coverage at ethanol content above 10 per cent.

[Patto-]

Here is one example of how 5% is ok, but 10% is not:

Peugeot and Citroen recommend owners not use E10, but says fuel with 5 per cent ethanol is fine.

Taken from:

http://carsguide.news.com.au/news/story_pa...5E21822,00.html

[Patto-]

Mor info from a report to the Department of the Prime Minister:

Almost all post-1986 vehicles can operate satisfactorily on E10. As was known when setting the fuel standard in 2003, E10 is not optimal for vehicles that have carburettors or mechanical fuel injectors, mainly pre-1986 vehicles.

The Taskforce considers that there is no reason to reduce the maximum ethanol limit in petrol from 10% to 5%.

Responsibility for consumer information about the fitness of fuel for its intended purpose rests mainly with fuel retailers and suppliers. In the light of that, the current fuel ethanol information standard could be simplified, primarily to require notification that the fuel contains ethanol at up to 10%.

Given that an even higher percentage of cars can use E5 than E10, the information standard for fuel ethanol could be further modified so that labelling is required only above 5% ethanol in petrol, rather than 1% as at present. As in Europe, this would give fuel companies flexibility to use up to 5% ethanol as a fuel extender or octane enhancer, without the costs of dispensing E5 as a separate blend.

And why people are so scared of it:

Consumer confidence was damaged significantly in 2002–2003 after reports of the distribution of high concentration (20–30%) ethanol blends around Sydney, and widely publicised allegations of vehicle damage. At the time, the Australian Automobile Association (AAA) and other consumer advocates became concerned about the potential operability and additional motoring costs associated with ethanol-blended fuels.

Ethanol_chapter_7.doc

Edited November 30, 2005 by shyster

[SteveL]

Mor info from a report to the Department of the Prime Minister:

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Perhaps you should go on to say that one of the main manufacturers/proponents of ethanol blended fuels has strong links to the Liberal party if not the PM himself. As an aside it's interesting to note that bio-diesel is to be differentially taxed to it's detriment compared with ethanol to the point that it is debatable whether the fledgling industry will survive......

In any event, Nissan has not stated that you can't use ethanol blended fuels, but that it is not recommended for vehicles manufactured before a certain date. The date is significant because it suggests production changes were made to accomodate such fuels. Personally, I'll take the word of the manufacturer for the time being, rather than un-attributed 'studies'. Show me some research into into the long term effects (if any) by a reputable, independent scientific organisation (eg CSIRO) and I'll consider using the stuff. But even then I would question the value for a street driven car in the (nominal) 2 points of RON rating to be gained (ie 100 RON as apposed to 98). I'd suggest the performance difference would be hardly noticable, if at all.

Edited November 30, 2005 by SteveL

[Emre]

Anyways, I'll wait a bit for the first test batch of lines to go through, if there are no dramas, then yeah, I'll start using it myself, if there are dead engines all over the joint, then obviously i'd refrain.

Peace.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Yeah... Peace and all that mate, but hang on a sec, I am having a little hard time of understanding you.

First you cream yourself over a 40 awkw gain on a race prepped GTR.

Than you dismiss the statement of Nissan Aus, saying it's only to cover their backside.

Finally you are betting your bottom dollar that there is no difference in between 03 and 05 Nissans.

So, why do you hesitate in using this fuel straight up...?

We (nay sayers) are not scared of ethanol per se, just cautious of the fact that Nissan does not recommend it. Why is it so, is the million dollar question. It might be as simple as to meet the emission requirements, or something that has more serious consequences.

Leaded race fuels have negative effects to your catalytic converters, O2 sensors, etc, but these effects are known and people (myself included) use it at their own risk. Same thing can not be said of ethanol. I don't care about what Peugeot or Citroen recommend, as i don't drive one.

[Patto-]

Perhaps you should go on to say that one of the main manufacturers/proponents of ethanol blended fuels has strong links to the Liberal party if not the PM himself.

Personally, I'll take the word of the manufacturer for the time being, rather than un-attributed 'studies'.  Show me some research into into the long term effects (if any) by a reputable, independent scientific organisation (eg CSIRO) and I'll consider using the stuff.  But even then I would question the value for a street driven car in the (nominal) 2 points of RON rating to be gained (ie 100 RON as apposed to 98).  I'd suggest the performance difference would be hardly noticable, if at all.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

My main argument was that there is a clear distinction between E5 and E10 fuel, as some people seemed to think they were the same thing, and had the same effects.

The report I quoted and attached was made for the PM's office, not by the PMs office. It was a report made by the Biofuels Taskforce. This taskforce includes:

* Dr Conall O'Connell, Deputy Secretary, Department of Environment and Heritage

* Dr David Brockway, Chief, Division of Energy Technology, CSIRO

* Dr John Keniry, Chairman Ridley Corporation Limited, and

* Mr Max Gillard, Vice President and Chief Operating Officer, Toyota Technical Centre, Asia Pacific Australia.

Also personally I would trust the NRMA, they are a motoring body, their sole prupose is to provide valuble information for motorists.

However I do agree with you that it would provide questionable value on a street driven car. In order to gain a performance bonus from using the fuel, you would have to get your car tuned on 100RON fuel. Which would mean you would have to use it exclusively, and there aren't currently enough servos that stock this fuel to make this feasible.

All I'm trying to do is correct some generalised and often incorrect statments made about ethanol blended fuels.

Edited November 30, 2005 by shyster

[heartbrkr]

if anything it should be the same as 98 or cheaper because of the ethanol.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Think it was 3 cents dearer. 1.17 vs 1.20

[Emre]

Noone said they were the same. Yes, there is a clear distinction and everyone would know it.

E5 is %95 gasoline and %5 ethanol.

E10 is %90 gasoline and %10 ethanol.

Nissan does not recommend the use of E10. Do you know where they stand in relation to E5...?

[SuAvE-1]

Nissan and pre 04 cars: my assumption goes with that crowd that believes that nissan wants to cover their ass, regardless of the facts about ethanol fuel. I'm sure nissan sold a lot of cars in 2004 THAT STILL HAVE THEIR NEW CAR WARRANTY. Think about it. I also doubt there will be any diff between a 04 and 05 maxima (for example). i'm pretty sure Nissan (and any car manufacturer for this matter) are liable for any damage which occured under the warranty, even if they claim it after the warranty has expired.

If ethanol does turn out to cause damage to our cars, nissan doesn't want to be held responsible.

on the 100 ron - yea, theory tells us that we gotta re-tune the car. I believe this to be true, but for all of us without engine management, (and this is confirmed by 2 extatic honda boy ricers), drain the battery/reset the ecu for gains. Timing resets and adjusts itself for fuel quality, timing may not retard as much and therefore gains.

All in all, i'll use the petrol in which my car drives the best. At the moment its BP ultimate, i'll try extreme when I get my license back, but by then they'll either have 100 octane at all servos and/or all fuel will have a healthy content of ethanol with no side effects, or there will be an additive out to protect fuel lines and stuff or it will be off the market because it destroys cars... or we will be all driving electric cars.

Nissan doesn't recommend the stuff, but it doesn't mean its bad, and what choice do we have regarding ethanol in fuel? are there any out there which don't contain it?

[Patto-]

Noone said they were the same. Yes, there is a clear distinction and everyone would know it.

E5 is %95 gasoline and %5 ethanol.

E10 is %90 gasoline and %10 ethanol.

Nissan does not recommend the use of E10. Do you know where they stand in relation to E5...?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Read this:

The only actual statement I've heard from Nissan is that they don't recommend the use of E10 fuel. As far as I know they have no policy on E5 fuel and everything I've ever heard about E5 says its safe for just about any car, if not every car.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Ethanol is ethanol, its there or it isnt.

If Nis Aust say 10% no good, then 5% ethanol... is what, just a "nothing" ?

A warning against Ethanol is just that, its like giving a warning against alcohol.

Someone issues warning about content in spirits, but its ok to drink beers cause its a lesser percentage.

End of the day go through enough of it you'll feel the same effects

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

As you can see, not everyone knows the distinction.

As I said I cannot find anything from Nissan about E5. They may be being purposely ambigous. But then again they may not have had a chance to give their opinion on E5, as it has only been released recently. Their discouragement of E10 fuel is from March 2004, which is a couple of years after ethanol was first introduced in those amounts in fuel.

Edited November 30, 2005 by shyster

[Emre]

Suave,

For Nissan to not recommend ethanol blend in their pre 04 cars, one can only assume that, they made changes to production of their vehicles to accept ethanol blend from 04 onwards. That is as straight forward as they come.

Also, a heads up on all other fuels. They contain %0 ethanol.

Shyster,

So, you don't know Nissan's stance to E5.

FYI, someone on PF rang Nissan and this is what he had to say about it : "Just got off the phone to nissan, and they confirmed that NO nissan built prior to Jan 04 to use any blended ethanol fuel whether it be 5% or 10%."

Re the quoted text of R31Nismoid, I don't want to speak on his behalf, but i am certain you misunderstood it.

His analogy with alcohol simply states that you can get just as drunk with beer as you can with spirits. E5 contains half the amount ethanol compared to E10. So, does it mean it is not as harmful, or totally harmless..?

Cheers.

[inark]

no emre... ALL manufacturers have given the same statement. And it isnt anything new. They have been "recommending" that ethanol fuels be used at your own risk for years.

and fair enough because in SOME cases there have been issues caused by higher percentages of ethanol being used. Also as you or someone else stated the cars after 04 have been tuned to run on ethanol... its nothing to with the fact that the engine has been redesigned to cope with it... i hardly think they would redesign the entire engine just because of people MAYBE using ethanol fuels.

Its MORE likely that all they are doing is incorporating it into their maps in the ECU, something the pre 04s more then likely dont have.

Obviously if you want to use it... simply tune your engine for it... ive been using 10% blend on the magna for months at a huge saving over normal petrol and had no issues whatsoever. So far done 5000ks on it... will do another 50k and im sure will have a similar report... no issues.

At the end of the day you dont have to use it...

[Patto-]

Re the quoted text of R31Nismoid, I don't want to speak on his behalf, but i am certain you misunderstood it.

His analogy with alcohol simply states that you can get just as drunk with beer as you can with spirits. E5 contains half the amount ethanol compared to E10. So, does it mean it is not as harmful, or totally harmless..?

Cheers.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Yes it does, I have already explained this. Read my above posts, I don't like repeating myself.

Like I said the only stance Nissan has against ethanol is against E10. I can't exactly comment on something you apparently heard from some guy, and I'm not going to ring Nissan to find out for sure. I really don't care that much.

But if you read my posts you will see the point proven that most manufacturers are just being overly cautious in regards to ethanol, and that E10 will run just fine on most engines, and E5 is fine on almost any engine.