Map Sensors V's Afm Ecu

[Kaido_RR]

Hello

Well its about that time when i should start looking for an ecu for my skyline.

Now i've done some searching and found that some people swear by MAP, that it gives better fuel eco. and others which say MAP is shithouse and AFM is the only way to go.

So im abit confused

Now this is my position, I've just bought a big turbo (around the 400hp mark) and before i put it on i want to do ecu and injectors and bigger afm (if i go afm).

Now im looking to keep a pretty good fuel eco. (arnt we all)

Now im not sure of any ecu that allows MAP sensors on an R33 S1 Rb25det (i've check PFC D-Jetro and Pro and i dont think they make them for gtst)

Does anyone know an ecu which uses MAP Sensors, i am also looking for lauch controll and antilag but they arnt a must.

Also, if people could post up there OWN Experiences with MAP or AFM Ecu that would be very helpful (i dont want peopls opinion unless they have uses one or the other thanks)

Thanks Michael

[Let Me Drive]

hay man i run a link pro ecu which has all the things you want and is one of the best (well i think so) you also can have a laptop concetion which give all data and can be tunded by any one who knows maps.

i see you are in W.A but if you call around there might be a place over there that sells them

[nismo33]

Wolf 3d V4 runs a MAP... if you could find a good tuner this is a great ECU..had this in my car,. even has built in boost control setting.

[maximajim]

I have owned a PFC with Datalogit and now a AEM EMS Map ecu.

First off the initial cost of the PFC makes it very attractive, nengun has a special $AUD860 for the pfc and hc. Secondly if you don't want to tune yourself you can probably take it to the tuner to have it tuned since the pfc is popular in AUS. Thirdly 400hp will not run out of the airflow curve of a z32 maf which is about $AUD250.

Now I tune my car myself and that's why I dumped the PFC. IMO other than being a pretty gauge the HC is useless. No inputs, tiny screen, etc etc. IF you tune youself you need the FC datalogit and a WBO2. That will cost you atleast $AUD800. Now the PFC is a powerful standalone. AFR's can be logged and each cell adjusted on one laptop screen.

So now that cheap PFC has gotten pricey and it doesn't have a boost controller (PFC BC $AUD350). That being said the AEM ems is still a little more expensive. Will be around $AUD2500 for the AEM vs $AUD2300 for the PFC with all the fixings.

The AEM is extremely powerful, it's comparalbe to the Motec M800 but much much cheaper and doesn't need to wired-it's PNP. The most important feature the AEM has is knock control. IMO knock is the #1 killer of RB25's. If you are a DIY tuner, this is important. The aem will detect knock, pull timing AND add fuel all of which you specify. Next there is the Boost compensation tuning. No longer will you have to tune cell by cell. Because the Gasoline engine is a linear device, you can add a linear percentage amount of fuel for each PSI of boost. You can set up the Boost compensation graph and have a perfectly straight AFR in less than an hour if not minutes. IF you don't feel comfortable with that the AEM has self-tune, with a few runs you can have the AEM tune itself.

There's lot more to be said, but the bottom line is who does the tuning?

Edited December 4, 2005 by maximajim

[race_snooze]

microtech as well use maps, i think?? someone correct me

[PHaT MR30]

yes, majority of aftermarket ECU's rely on MAP sensors and TPS

the other factor is, does the ecu run in closed loop? this will determine fuel economy and alot of entry level aftermarket ecu's do not run in closed loop.

to guage my rb25 with catback, pod filter, boost and microtech used less fuel than a mates similar modded car which ran a mine's ecu. both had very similar power levels too

In saying all this i may have my microtech LT-8 up for sale

[N I B]

Wolfs have just updated the 3D plugin and it really is delivering the results.Their closed loop is working very well and have the inputs for you to add an Air temp sensor all helping to get good ecomomy and drivability.

Top racing and Wheelspin for Wolf in WA.

[Sydneykid]

This is a much discussed topic, do a search and you will find that THE most popular upgraded ECU for Skylines are Power FC's, by a huge margin. A search will show you that the Power FC is the only ECU that is truly PNP, in 5 minutes you can drive away. With standard ECU driveability, nothing else offers that.

As far as AFM versus MAP there is no comparison as you would have read a number of times if you had bothered to do a seach. An AFM driven ECU actually knows the airflow going into the engine, a MAP sensor driven ECU guesses the amount of airflow based on RPM, throttle position and pressure.

The Power FC does everything on your list if used with a Datalogit (www.fc-datalogit.com), which you would have found out if you had taken the time to do a search.

As for the cost;

$860 (Group Buy) - $260 (sold the Commander) = $600

PFC Boost Control Kit (Nengun) $360

Datalogit (Group Buy) = $425

Total = $1,385

As for tuning, yes a search would have helped here too, the PFC has such great basic mapping that it is a simple tuning job. With many tuners all around the country keeping the costs low, around $400 should easily cover the cost of tuning an R33GTST with 400 bhp (~230 rwkw).

If you want any more details on any of the above I strongly suggest that you do a seach first, as it is unlikely that you will have a question that 100's of people haven't had before.

cheers

PS; did I mention that you should do a search?

[maximajim]

The aem is also PNP if you decide to use the MAF. BTW the AEM does MAF and MAP with the same ECU :^) . All you have to do is Upload the MAF maps, no harder than turning off the Boost control option on the PFC.

Also the RB20,RB25,RB26 aem ems are all the same ecu, so if you sell it you are not limited to who you cansell it too.

Edited December 5, 2005 by maximajim

[Kaido_RR]

thanks everyone for the reply

let me just add a few things, i did search using MAP sensors and AFM ecu, can come up with only 1 page of results none relating to what i wanted to know.

Also, i know that PFC is cheap and PNP and all the rest, i also know its not just the ecu but also the tuner.

Im looking too see if its worth going the MAP/MAF sensors path or just AFM.

ohh and SK, so pfc + datalogit = antilag and launch controll?

also i would like to add i wont be doing any of the tuning myself

NIB:

Does the new wolf, have antilag ?

[Dee 33]

I run the Wolf3Dv4 and tuned by P.I.T.S on the Gold Coast the car runs flawlessly. It uses the MAP sensor as well. So yeah, no complaints whatsoever from me and my Wolf...

[Sydneykid]

The aem is also PNP if you decide to use the MAF. BTW the AEM does MAF and MAP  with the same ECU :^) . All you have to do is Upload the MAF maps, no harder than turning off the Boost control option on the PFC.

Also the RB20,RB25,RB26 aem ems are all the same ecu, so if you sell it you are not limited to who you cansell it too.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I have been watching the AEM ECU's for some time, we have some of their other hardware on non Nissan race cars. The reasons why we haven't used their stuff to date are;

1. They use the same ECU only where the wiring harness is the same. So R34 units are different to R32 and R33. Like PFC's they don't suport autos, which was a dissappointment considering the American's love of autos.

2. There is only one Australian agent located in Queensland and there is little, if any, support in the other states.

3. The price he quoted was $2,900 delivered, which is up there in Autronic and even Motec territory.

4. The last version of AEM software I saw was very clunky, not friendly, slow and cumbersome, not all nice to use like a Motec or Autronic. In fact not even as easy to use as Datalogit for the Power FC's. It seems to operate on its own logic which is totally different to almost every other ECU.

5. I couldn't find one tuner with the software loaded, we would have to supply our own.

6. All units ran wasted spark ignition, as they only had 5 ignition drivers. I couldn't decide whether it was a 4 cylinder unit trying to run a 6, or a V8 unit. This is confirmend by the CDI where they only have 4 cylinder or 8 cylinder CDI units, no 6 cylinder.

7. Processor speed was difficult to tie down, they quoted 16 bit in some places and 32 bit in other.

8. There weren't any tables for upgraded AFM's, only the standard AFM for that model.

From memory there were a few minor other issues, so they are CLOSE to being a good competitor but not quite there yet.

cheers

[mikymouse]

SydneyKid, just wondering what group buy is the PowerFC available for $850? Cheapest I could find on SAU is $950.

[maximajim]

1. They use the same ECU only where the wiring harness is the same. So R34 units are different to R32 and R33. Like PFC's they don't suport autos, which was a dissappointment considering the American's love of autos.

That is true, but the R34 RB26 is the only odd ball of the family. The rest are the same.

2. There is only one Australian agent located in Queensland and there is little, if any, support in the other states.

There is the AEM forum, where AEM engineers will help with issues. The aem also comes with comprehensive documentation where as the PFC has nil.

3. The price he quoted was $2,900 delivered, which is up there in Autronic and even Motec territory.

I'm sure that price includes the intergrated AEM WBO2, there are two versions of the ems, one with an one without the WB. The non-WB is about 1700USD. Now remember the AEM is PNP, no need for Trigger wheels, CDI's ect etc.

4. The last version of AEM software I saw was very clunky, not friendly, slow and cumbersome, not all nice to use like a Motec or Autronic. In fact not even as easy to use as Datalogit for the Power FC's. It seems to operate on its own logic which is totally different to almost every other ECU.

You may have been looking at an older version of the software. The current version makes the Datalogit look like a homemade app. I can send you the software for you to evaluate. IT did take me a while to become acustomed to the aem after using the datalogit. However the apps feel much more polished.

5. I couldn't find one tuner with the software loaded, we would have to supply our own.

Each ems comes with a software CD which includes EFI basics manual, EMS instruction manual,MAPS for all supported cars, control and logging software

6. All units ran wasted spark ignition, as they only had 5 ignition drivers. I couldn't decide whether it was a 4 cylinder unit trying to run a 6, or a V8 unit. This is confirmend by the CDI where they only have 4 cylinder or 8 cylinder CDI units, no 6 cylinder.

True they have 5 ignition drivers, but 10 sequential injector drivers.

7. Processor speed was difficult to tie down, they quoted 16 bit in some places and 32 bit in other.

AEM quotes a 16/32 hybrid processor.

8. There weren't any tables for upgraded AFM's, only the standard AFM for that model.

No here's the kicker, the aem can use ANY Sensor from ANY car as long as you have a calibration table. Thereare a number of MAF's listed in the AEM software, the z32 MAF is listed.

From memory there were a few minor other issues, so they are CLOSE to being a good competitor but not quite there yet.

I don't think the aem was ment to compete with the high end motec's or autronics, but it try to fit right below them.

[RB30-POWER]

Power FC D Jetro

If you want a Speed Density System but whilst keeping PowerFc.

[Kaido_RR]

Power FC D Jetro

If you want a Speed Density System but whilst keeping PowerFc.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

i dont think apexi make the D-Jetro for r33 gts-t

[RB30-POWER]

Hmm ok...

Thought i've heard people talk of them, but maybe im mistaken.

Maybe they are for GTR only.

[R31Nismoid]

does EMS has cold-start and other things loaded like a PFC?

[SleepingTalon]

The AEM is the system I use in almost every car here in the states. It has the most flexibility of all, and the software updates have fixed most of the "gliches" that it had in the begining. You thought the aem software was "clunky?" Im confused...the AEM has the best interface of any system I've tuned with...3D maps, and tables, so you can "see" what you're doing for those like myself that dont like to stare at tables and numbers constantly. Boost comp doesnt always work well with every car, but it does come in handy. As far as the knock control is, it does come in handy, but for cars with very sensitive knock sensors, you pretty much have to shut it off if you wanna make BIG power. Take the new EVO for instance. If you have the knock control on, you'll never make big power, but for a street car, I always turn the knock control on. Also, to answer your question, the AEM has a coolant offset table for cold starts, so you can set the table up to gradually pull fuel out as water temp increases. At any rate, the AEM is what I consider the EMS yardstick now. It can do everything very well, and pretty much has the bases covered. The antilag system is still primitive compared to other systems, but the Supra that the shop I tune at built, is running the AEM, and running 8.5 on street tires and stock piston rings with it! So it does do the job very well. I havent had the chance to use the PFC yet because it's not a product that is readily available or of much use for the cars here in the USA, but I will be using one soon, and I'm anxious to see how it compares to some of the other systems I've used...and I pretty much tune anything and everything that comes my way!

Edited December 5, 2005 by SleepingTalon

[maximajim]

does EMS has cold-start and other things loaded like a PFC?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

The ems has a better cold start function than the PFC. I believe the PFC only has fuel enrichment for cold start. The EMS has Fuel enrichment, RPM vs temp decay and RPM vs start time decay.

As for knock control, Nissan sensor are very very quiet on the ems, I don't know why. The most I've picked up is .39 volts, most of the time it's 0.019v. The PFC picks up knock rather easily. But as you know you are supposed to calibrate your knock sensors to your particular setup to cancel out engine noises that can be picked up as knock.