The Three Litre Thread

[rev210]

Also if the RB30 high powered blocks are prone to letting go so readily in R32GTR's what is the count on those? I only seem to hear about ones with 700hp+ in GTR's and none of those have let go yet. It's the old story of if its a problem for 1 person he tells 100, as opposed to 1 other if things go well.

Seems to be more myths albeit backed by some decent ideas than facts?

[Mik]

Also if the RB30 high powered blocks are prone to letting go so readily in R32GTR's what is the count on those? I only seem to hear about ones with 700hp+ in GTR's and none of those have let go yet. It's the old story of if its a problem for 1 person he tells 100, as opposed to 1 other if things go well.

Seems to be more myths albeit backed by some decent ideas than facts?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

The N1, GT and RB-X blocks actually do have higher mangesium content than the 05U blocks. I can't remember the conventrations, but I think the Jap magazine I saw it in did list them.

[bfi.inc]

bfi, is it Munro's current engine that was "disassembled"?

If so, I can think of a pretty good reason too, but it may not be free for public info yet.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

no i was referring to original drag motor

[rev210]

Hi Mik,

Hate to say it but without the magazine article being able to reffer you to an actual primary source fact I would doubt the validity.

As it is you don't know what magazine you saw and can't reffer us to it. I am afraid without that we are still in 'rumour land'.

[Mik]

Hi Mik,

Hate to say it but without the magazine article being able to reffer you to an actual primary source fact I would doubt the validity.

As it is you don't know what magazine you saw and can't reffer us to it. I am afraid without that we are still in 'rumour land'.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Carefactor = 0 Sorry mate but I can't be bothered trawling through hundreds of mags that I can't even read just to make you happyTake my comment with a grain of salt...doesn't bother me in the slightest.

[Sydneykid]

okay...

1.  By serious power, I meant 700-800ps. I have never tried it, but from what I have heard from a couple of people who have, the blocks crack around the ribs at the bottom. They seem to now like the stress off the from diff bolted to the bottom of the block. Not sure if all RB30 blocks afre the same???

I reckon an RB30 would be good in a street driven 500-600hp GTR with 2430s / 2860s / groups A turbos to make the same power as it would with a 2.6 with a lot less revs. Whether or not it is worth the hassle of fitting, I don't know.

2. See above post

3. See 1.

4. A hyundai Excel engine would hold the weight of the sump/diff, but what about the torsional load?

5. Never cut one up, but have had a good look. They are quite different. Also, the RB26 blocks have a different metalurgy...higher Mg content.

6. Your prices are interesting. A US$2000 forged crank is a bargain. Had I known that, I may have taken a different route with my engine build.

The cheaoest US made pistons / rings I could find were about US$160 a pop.

$110 a pop for rods is dirt cheap...they must be Chinese for that?? What brand? Carillo / Pauter / Crower / Arrow are far more than that.

Your comment about the Jap agreements is an intersting one. I too used to believ that the Jap gear came from the states, but I have seeen severl Jap branded cranks that are stamped with made in Japan.

It's a common concensus that HKS/Trust rods are Carillos, but they are not. They use ARP fasteners and speak to Mr Carillo himslelf...he will not touch ARP...only SPS.

Similarly, Tomei pistons are very different to anything form the states. Nice long skirts, made for 2 thou clearances. The bloke that bored my block was so impressed with the pistons that he wanted to know if they made anything to suit a 350 Chev for his sprint car engines.

7. Agreed, but the GT block is supposedly even better.

I agree with you fully about the rod ratio, which is why I was thinking about using custom rods and pistons to get a bigger rod ratio for my engine. But, when it somes down to it...the Jap stroker kits happily rev to 11krpm plus and don't smash piston skirts. Again a 350 chev builder would laugh at you if you told them you can do that with a 1.6 rod ratio.

The big problem with the 38mm spacer is how do you fit it in the car? I know there is no chance in a BCNR33 or BNR34, never really had a close enough look on a BNR32 though. I'm not real keen on droping the sub frame.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Responses as follows;

1. 700 ps is a doddle for an RB30 with a standard crank and block, do it all day.

2. Add up the total cost, that's why people do it, not one or two people either, more like 30 to 40 new ones every year. The problem is the 2.6l has to rev ~20% higher to make the same power, that means a whole pile of expensive top end stuff is needed. Plus there are drive line ratios to be considered, raise the rpm lower the ratios, that isn't cheap either.

4. You really do need to have a look at a proper 4wd sump adaptor, they are braced back to the engine mounts and triangulated to the gearbox. We have 5 years up on one of those and it's perfect. Inspected and crack tested when doing a clutch change last year.

5. Hardness tests show no difference, specific gravity is the same. I can guess/speculate about the metallurgy until the cows come home, it doesn't show up in real world testing.

6. Yep, all USA made high quality parts. It's still the home of high volume forged engine components, once they do a CAD/CAM of a part, it costs no more to make than the equivalent Chevy part. China/Taiwan/Vietnam etc only get significantly cheaper when there is substantial labour involved. There is very little labour in making a CAD/CAM conrod, it's all about machine costs and raw materials.

Harrop Engineering made RB cranks, maybe the boxes they came in were "Made in Japan" but the cranks sure weren't. We buy rods from Carrillo without bolts. Surely just the fact that they come with US made rod bolts makes you go hmmmmmm? They can make forged cranks cost effectively but not high tensile rod bolts, yeh right!

How often do the top Jap teams actually run their GTR's down the 1/4? Not very!! Maybe they are afraid of the cost when the pistons/rods/crank let go, because of the poor rod/stroke ratio. Many of the top 10 GTR 1/4 miles were set 5 years or more ago. The cars rarely, if ever, seen again. Why do you think that is? Running costs too high to justify the exposure, perhaps. That's what the RH9 club was all about, do one single 9 sec pass and you qualify, not one 9 sec pass per year. Just one, that's all it took, spend $A250K, stick the car in your showroom and advertise that you build 9 sec GTR's. By my count Theo's car has run more 9's than the top 5 Jap GTR's added together.

As for Carrillo using SPS rod bolts, well of course they do, after all they do make them.

7. There are a few other limited edition blocks that are also worthy, but not so easy to get ones hands on.

8. We have RB30's running around in R32's, R33's and R34's with the RB26 cylinder head, inlet and plenum that are an easy fit. Not so easy with the 80 mm cross over pipe and high plenum on an RB25 top end. But I don't think any one would use a standard RB25 plenum/inlet on a "serious power" 3 litre.

As I said previously there is far more to what is best for performance and what is best value for money.

cheers

[Mik]

Responses as follows;

1. 700 ps is a doddle for an RB30 with a standard crank and block, do it all day.

2. Add up the total cost, that's why people do it, not one or two people either, more like 30 to 40 new ones every year.  The problem is the 2.6l has to rev ~20% higher to make the same power, that means a whole pile of expensive top end stuff is needed.  Plus there are drive line ratios to be considered, raise the rpm lower the ratios, that isn't cheap either.

4. You really do need to have a look at a proper 4wd sump adaptor, they are braced back to the engine mounts and triangulated to the gearbox.  We have 5 years up on one of those and it's perfect.  Inspected and crack tested when doing a clutch change last year.

5. Hardness tests show no difference, specific gravity is the same.  I can guess/speculate about the metallurgy until the cows come home, it doesn't show up in real world testing.

6. Yep, all USA made high quality parts.  It's still the home of high volume forged engine components, once they do a CAD/CAM of a part, it costs no more to make than the equivalent Chevy part. China/Taiwan/Vietnam etc only get significantly cheaper when there is substantial labour involved.  There is very little labour in making a CAD/CAM conrod, it's all about machine costs and raw materials. 

Harrop Engineering made RB cranks, maybe the boxes they came in were "Made in Japan" but the cranks sure weren't.  We buy rods from Carrillo without bolts.  Surely just the fact that they come with US made rod bolts makes you go hmmmmmm?  They can make forged cranks cost effectively but not high tensile rod bolts, yeh right!

How often do the top Jap teams actually run their GTR's down the 1/4? Not very!!  Maybe they are afraid of the cost when the pistons/rods/crank let go, because of the poor rod/stroke ratio.  Many of the top 10 GTR 1/4 miles were set 5 years or more ago.  The cars rarely, if ever, seen again.  Why do you think that is?  Running costs too high to justify the exposure, perhaps.  That's what the RH9 club was all about, do one single 9 sec pass and you qualify, not one 9 sec pass per year.  Just one, that's all it took, spend $A250K, stick the car in your showroom and advertise that you build 9 sec GTR's.  By my count Theo's car has run more 9's than the top 5 Jap GTR's added together.

As for Carrillo using SPS rod bolts, well of course they do, after all they do make them.

7. There are a few other limited edition blocks that are also worthy, but not so easy to get ones hands on.

8. We have RB30's running around in R32's, R33's and R34's with the RB26 cylinder head, inlet and plenum that are an easy fit.  Not so easy with the 80 mm cross over pipe and high plenum on an RB25 top end.  But I don't think any one would use a standard RB25 plenum/inlet on a "serious power" 3 litre.

As I said previously there is far more to what is best for performance and what is best value for money.

cheers

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Thanks for replying...this is getting interesting.

The 4wd adapters I have seen are nothing more than an adaptor plate. All that bracing would probably mittigate the problem with the weaker block.

I've never hardness tested the blocks, so I can't say. But I would say that the hardness would vary from one 05U to another due to different age, history, batch etc. Specific gravity is easy to measure...not too sure if a delta would mean much though.

Chinese rods are much cheaper than US made ones. True...not much labour involved in making them, but the steel they use is much cheaper than the yanks use.

My crank was definately made in Japan and I know for certain that Toda and Tomei cranks are also made in Japan.

Almost every rod on earth uses American fastners. Even Tomei rods (made by arrow precision in the UK) use ARP fastners.

Out of interest, what brand rods can you get for that money?

Yep...japs sure do make decent bolts...Nagoya Precision comes to mind. Tomei / jun bolts are made by them.

I didn't know you could get Carillo rods without fastners. Are they finsihed, or do you have to hone them to size?

In Japan 9 second cars run at illegal drags in the indusrtial areas every weekend.

[Swiper the Fox]

In Japan 9 second cars run at illegal drags in the indusrtial areas every weekend.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Your credibility flew out the window with this one.

[Mik]

Your credibility flew out the window with this one.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

And why's that?

[rev210]

Carefactor = 0 Sorry mate but I can't be bothered trawling through hundreds of mags that I can't even read just to make you happyTake my comment with a grain of salt...doesn't bother me in the slightest.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Ok mate.

No one asked you to prove anything. Just when people talk about something as though its a fact it's reasonable to think they can back up a claim?

I thought you would like to add some constructive information thats all.

In the interest of trying to back up what you were talking about I took the liberty of doing some reading of various sites containing information on Nickel cast iron engine block metalurgy and the use of magnesium.In searching google I was unable to find any information regarding the importance of it in that specific application, nor any info regarding the specific differences between the Rb30 and Rb26 blocks. All that proves perhaps is I was looking in the wrong places?

[Mik]

Ok mate.

No one asked you to prove anything. Just when people talk about something as though its a fact it's reasonable to think they can back up a claim?

I thought you would like to add some constructive information thats all.

In the interest of trying to back up what you were talking about I took the liberty of doing some reading of various sites containing information on Nickel cast iron engine block metalurgy and the use of magnesium.In searching google I was unable to find any information regarding the importance of it in that specific application, nor any info regarding the specific differences between the Rb30 and Rb26 blocks. All that proves perhaps is I was looking in the wrong places?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I'm just relaying what I read (or half read and was told by someonw transalting for me )

It does make alot of sense to me, becasue physically, the N! blocks don't look much different to th 05U blocks.

The GT blocks do though.

[R31Nismoid]

And why's that?

Im sure your smart enough to work it out.

I agree with paul on this one entirely

Keep it nice, stop whinging @ each other or ill have to put on my serious face again for a while. I dont wanna hand out warnings.

FI has been perfect the past 2-3 months.

dont send it south

[djhatton]

you dont know so why speculate. I do but cant be bothered.Its easier to let the crap,regular slander,uninformed and uneducated opinions blather away(some notable exceptions).

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

lets not let this thread turn into a biach-fest per R31Nismoid's comments. there's plenty of potential in here for a civilised discussion.

bfi.inc, i don't need to know, frankly. whatever the reasons for munro pulling this engine down, i consider it totally irrelevant. the basic "blueprinting" of the engine ex-os giken factory floor wasn't as desired when inspected by AED, which was the thrust of my point. i'm not saying the os is a bad engine. nor am i saying os is not competent at building engines. if the willall racers have run 2 of these suckers without a hitch straight off the pallet, then there is no reason for me to doubt this engine's potential (which i never did anyway). perhaps with os's quality control... ??? without taking this as negative, realise that nearly every manufacturer, no matter how well respected can produce a less than 100% product. it happens from time to time.

re your comments sk, i too am curious as to the sources of engine-bit pricing. i know that the automotive parts industry usually has a fair whack of GP% in their products, but the prices you've stated do seem awfully attractive might do a rebuild on my own car if they're that cheap

d

[Amaru]

Out of interest, what brand rods can you get for that money?

Yep...japs sure do make decent bolts...Nagoya Precision comes to mind. Tomei / jun bolts are made by them.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

JUN use ARP rod bolts.

Edited December 9, 2005 by Amaru

[ido09s]

It's a common concensus that HKS/Trust rods are Carillos, but they are not. They use ARP fasteners and speak to Mr Carillo himslelf...he will not touch ARP...only SPS.

probably a bit of topic so i must appologise but the above quote is a little un true.... i can assure people here that Trusts "H" beam rods are Carrillos and they also have carrillo SPS bolts.... just so happens i had a set of Trust rods arrive at the shop the other day.

[BU5TER]

And for those that don't know where do you work Brad is it Advan who mainly sell TRUST parts?

[Swiper the Fox]

i once read in a magazine that i ran a 9.38....that must be true then too!

[Fitzpatrick Speed Works]

This thread brought a huge smile to my face when I read it!!!!!!!

Talk to any good engine builder and you know what he hates??? Shit that is talked by keyboard warriors who read something somewhere five years ago that was written by a journo in the first place.

REAL WORLD RESULTS PEOPLE, I dont care if you test the rb30 block to the cows come home, they are proven in Australia from asshole to breakfast and I have never heard of none ever split an engine block or done the crank from a weakness in design its always a bearing problem, from a poorly designed oiling system a problem that all rb's have....

In the REAL WORLD a 2% gain in peak power wouldnt even be able to be felt in the car let be honest a cold night would be more noticable, a 20mg higher magnesium count doesnt mean shit cause something else will go wrong before that even gets a look in. PLease to the doubters please show me all these GTRS that have ripped up the block becuase of torque loadings due to the front diff??? There arent alot of GTRs with rb30's in them and I know of every single one and have researched extensively myself or was involved someway in the build or sold my adapter to and have heard the results!!! Not having a go at anyone but in the real world everyone has budgetry constrants, and the guy who goes for a rb30 over an os kit or a 24u block shouldn't feel he has an inferior product cause in the "real world" the differences in metal composition etc wont play a part in the real demise or survival of an engine!!!!

[bfi.inc]

lets not let this thread turn into a biach-fest per R31Nismoid's comments. there's plenty of potential in here for a civilised discussion.

bfi.inc, i don't need to know, frankly. whatever the reasons for munro pulling this engine down, i consider it totally irrelevant. the basic "blueprinting" of the engine ex-os giken factory floor wasn't as desired when inspected by AED, which was the thrust of my point. i'm not saying the os is a bad engine. nor am i saying os is not competent at building engines. if the willall racers have run 2 of these suckers without a hitch straight off the pallet, then there is no reason for me to doubt this engine's potential (which i never did anyway). perhaps with os's quality control... ??? without taking this as negative, realise that nearly every manufacturer, no matter how well respected can produce a less than 100% product. it happens from time to time.

re your comments sk, i too am curious as to the sources of engine-bit pricing. i know that the automotive parts industry usually has a fair whack of GP% in their products, but the prices you've stated do seem awfully attractive might do a rebuild on my own car if they're that cheap

As i said,it was Munros decision spurred on perhaps by a journalist(?) who wanted to see the inside of a OS motor.

d

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

[Mik]

JUN use ARP rod bolts.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Yep...just like everyone else...but their main bolts/cam studs and rod bolts for OEM rods (I think) are made by NP.