Jun 2.7l Stroker Build Underway (hks T04z)

[pnblight]

BRAD send me your email address if you would like some pics and info on sump setups as recently been down that road and did quiet of bit of research into them.

pete

[lwells]

BRAD send me your email address if you would like some pics and info on sump setups as recently been down that road and did quiet of bit of research into them.

pete

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Unless you don't want it made public, would you consider posting it up? I'm sure other members (moi!) would be interested in your research.

[pnblight]

Unless you don't want it made public, would you consider posting it up?  I'm sure other members (moi!) would be interested in your research.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Its a little off topic and you perfectly honest i would perfer to keep it on a bit more of a personally level as some of the info i have posted previously, no matter weather i back up with published documentation or what ever ends up getting to dedates/arguements etc, so if anyone is interested contact with your email address and i'll send you what i found out.

pete

[StageZilla]

BRAD send me your email address if you would like some pics and info on sump setups as recently been down that road and did quiet of bit of research into them.

pete

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

hey pete thanks mate, much appreciated

my email is [email protected]

look forward to the pics

ok tonight i torqued up the rod bolts to spec, and bolted the baffle plates onto the cradle, and put the oil pickup back on.

i have a r33 n1 water pump, and i been told one of the little holes need welding up or it will leak, so which hole is it, the one on the side or the one at the bottom?

yes denver the issue of the front diff on mine means i cant extend the drivers side at all unless i make the sump another 2 inches deeper which i dont want clearance issues and it sits dead flush with the x-member at the moment. surely with the sump full of oil it hasnt got enough room to go anywhere but in the pickup area?

also does anyone know what the hell this little taper plug is and where does it go? its not the oil gallery ones, so what could it be? i've even got the part no. so can someone check it on nissan fast program????

cheers

Brad

Edited December 19, 2005 by StageZilla

[Denver]

yes denver the issue of the front diff on mine means i cant extend the drivers side at all unless i make the sump another 2 inches deeper which i dont want clearance issues and it sits dead flush with the x-member at the moment. surely with the sump full of oil it hasnt got enough room to go anywhere but in the pickup area?

also does anyone know what the hell this little taper plug is and where does it go? its not the oil gallery ones, so what could it be? i've even got the part no. so can someone check it on nissan fast program????

cheers

Brad

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Brad,

could still extend the sump to the right side, it would involve a tricky setup tho, the one im picturing in my head would involve a section that can be unbolted to give you the extra capacity, and still give you access to the diff without cutting things.. tricky yes, slightly anoying yes, but you'd cover youself for the issues of surge a lot better..

as for the tapered plug, looks just like the head oil feed restrictor i stuck in my block the other night, cept i used a reduced size tomei unit..

has it got a hole in the centre?

[pnblight]

sent sump info i hope it helps sorry for the size of the file

pete

[Sydneykid]

The "Jun remove the squish" has always intrigued me. It is universally accepted that squish/quench is a good thing, for both power and detonation prevention. So why would you remove it?

Lately I have heard (a number of times) that Jun only do it for their customer engines, but not their own race engines. That to me indicates they may actually use it as a method of adjusting compression ratios to control detonation. It saves them using different dome pistons and/or thick head gaskets.

The pistons are an obvious cost issue, as they would need to carry many differrent part numbers for the large number of capacity and compression ratio combinations. The thick headgaskets in themsleves add a number of problems, including sealing and detonation inducement.

There has been some discussion over the potential for improved airflow around the valves as a result of removing the squish material. Having tested this on a number of engines (no RB's though) the improvement is marginal at best. Certainly not enough (on a turbo charged engine) to offset the downside.

So maybe removing the squish is the lesser of the evils, but it is still evil in itself.

cheers

[SteveL]

also does anyone know what the hell this little taper plug is and where does it go? its not the oil gallery ones, so what could it be? i've even got the part no. so can someone check it on nissan fast program????

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Found it. FAST shows it goes into the block near the oil filter boss. The drawing in FAST is a bit vague - might be on the internal surface or even on the sump line.

[MattSR]

Hence my post above that everyone ignored

Another benefit to JUN is that the lack of squish make it easier to tune the engine too as the tuning window is larger and not so critical to making power. When its an in-house race engine they have total control over everything (race fuel, tuning, etc, etc) they keep the squish head.

Very interesting stuff thats for sure.

Another topic that was raised with Koyama was the GT Cooling mod that is performed by JUN on the RB26. Apprently he had some interesting things to say about that mod too, though I didnt get the low down on that one.

Cheers

A tuner friend of mine spoke with Koyama himself a number of years ago on this topic - he said that removing the quench pads is only done on customer engines and that it makes the engine less prone to detonation, but it also reduces the combustion efficiency.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

The "Jun remove the squish" has always intrigued me.  It is universally accepted that squish/quench is a good thing, for both power and detonation prevention. So why would you remove it?

Lately I have heard (a number of times) that Jun only do it for their customer engines, but not their own race engines.  That to me indicates they may actually use it as a method of adjusting compression ratios to control detonation.  It saves them using different dome pistons and/or thick head gaskets. 

The pistons are an obvious cost issue, as they would need to carry many differrent part numbers for the large number of capacity and compression ratio combinations.  The thick headgaskets in themsleves add a number of problems, including sealing and detonation inducement.

There has been some discussion over the potential for improved airflow around the valves as a result of removing the squish material.  Having tested this on a number of engines (no RB's though) the improvement is marginal at best.  Certainly not enough (on a turbo charged engine) to offset the downside.

So maybe removing the squish is the lesser of the evils, but it is still evil in itself.

cheers

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

[Blitz]

i have a r33 n1 water pump, and i been told one of the little holes need welding up or it will leak, so which hole is it, the one on the side or the one at the bottom?

Brad, are you using an R32 GTR RB26 block?

[StageZilla]

Brad, are you using an R32 GTR RB26 block?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

yep its a r32 block, engine no. is like 001820 i think so its a 89'er i reckon. had a small drive crank too.

[proengines]

That plug looks like the one that should be in the block under where the oil filter/cooler adapter bolts on. There is the spigot that pokes out of the block and a hole on each side of it. the hole at the rear side of the spigot is plugged.

I still think the squish areas should stay, theres some very interesting reading on the endyne website regarding piston and chamber design. Their rollerwave piston design makes a lot of sense. These guys run Honda engines with very high compression turboed without detonation problems. If someone told me that I wouldn't believe it but they have the numbers on the board to show that it works.

Have a look at the chambers of F1 engines, they still run a quench area at each side of the chamber.

Looking at a head yesterday, I think it would be pretty easy to set it up in the mill and use a form cutter to radius the edges of the quench area, kind of what you do with a router on the edge of a piece of wood.

[Turbine]

I would imagine that these 'Quench Areas' in the combustion chamber area, for a high speed, high compresion (say over 10:1) turbocharged engine, are their to allow the airflow to break the speed of sound across the engine without causing shockwaves, hitting a brick wall if you like.

While airspeed is below the speed of sound, it will still travel around smooth bends and turns quite well, but go supersonic and these smooth bends and turns cause the air to crash (shock waves form). I can explain in a little more detail but this will do for now.

Have a look at an old flathead Ford V8 cylinder head, now compare the chambers with a race version head. The quench areas are sharp edged (not razor sharp of course). I am sure that is what they have done to improve the RPM of the engine.

I have an RB20DE engine that I have turbocharged in my Drag Racer. It should be interesting to see how it behaves.

Nice work on your engine though guys, hope it all goes together well.

Cheers

[Blitz]

yep its a r32 block, engine no. is like 001820 i think so its a 89'er i reckon. had a small drive crank too.

Ah-ha! thus the mod for the N1 water pump

[SteveL]

The R33 GTR pump has a slotted hole for a 6mm bolt at the 'top' - you can't really miss it. I put one on my R32 GTR and had to 'fill' the hole a small amount on the block face side as there wasn't quite enough 'overlap' to acheive a seal. The hole doesn't need to be filled completely and it's not a good idea anyway if your welding it because the extra heat input can distort the pump, even if your using TIG. Plus it means extra machining, of course (they are a bitch to hold in the mill without the right vice/clamping eqpt/jig.

[StageZilla]

The R33 GTR pump has a slotted hole for a 6mm bolt at the 'top' - you can't really miss it.  I put one on my R32 GTR and had to 'fill' the hole a small amount  on the block face side as there wasn't quite enough 'overlap' to acheive a seal.  The hole doesn't need to be filled completely and it's not a good idea anyway if your welding it because the extra heat input can distort the pump, even if your using TIG.  Plus it means extra machining, of course (they are a bitch to hold in the mill without the right vice/clamping eqpt/jig.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

hey steve L and proengines, i found that taper plug, thank you very much guys i been looking over the block for weeks wondering where it goes

also whats the best way to fill the hole area then? liquid metal stuff or what? i realise welding aint a smart idea but it was mentioned by someone

heres a couple of pics of the r33 N1 waterpump and the part no. and also a couple of the underside of the block completely finished (except baffles).

cheers again, u r all a great help

[StageZilla]

ok guys i got another question hehe

my crank has a different style of keyway than the original crank.

the JUN crank has a full length bar bit

and stock crank has 2 half moon shape bits.

i got a keyway the right shape from the engine machinist/shop i got the block done through but they said about it needing to be 5 thou bigger.

so where can u get a keyway from? is it high tensile steel or just normal steel?

cheers

Brad

[StageZilla]

ok, ive recently bolted all the stuff i can onto the block, except the waterpump as im going to fill the extra hole tommorow and then i can install that.

parts include, the oil pump, front crank seal, rear crank oil seal and housing, oil filter stuff, sump, engine mounts, alternator, air con bracket, power steering bracket and thats about it for the moment.

got the shims for the head today finally, so tommorow im goin to do the head and hopefully finish the head totally. then on monday im hoping to bolt the head on the block and then all the finish touches, like my trust stainless steel manifold, hks 50mm wastegate, hks t04z turbo, plenum & throttle bodies (highly polished), sard fuel rail, sard injectors, sard FPR, and a few other things...

then engine goes back in the car and then i gotta sort out the turbo oil and water lines (braided lines). which oil line should i block off, the front or rear? need some braided fuel lines for the duel entry fuel rail, make the 3" dump pipe, with merging wastegate pipe (detachable) into 4" pipe to my 4" magic cat. and gotta change the turbo side intercooler piping abit to suit the new setup.

longest wait will be the tuner and ill chuck it on the dyno to set the AFR's before i run it in. sometime early in the new year im hoping to be finished, engine run in and dyno tuned for relatively low boost so i can use it abit before i kill the stock gearbox. then in the near future ill wind up the wick and hopefully pump over 2 bar into it and see what the big Z can do

enough info, heres a couple of latest pics...

cheers

Brad

[lwells]

So what, if anything, did you end up doing with the sump and the squish areas in the head?

PS. Where do you live so I can tell.. er... santa clause which chimney to go down

[StageZilla]

So what, if anything, did you end up doing with the sump and the squish areas in the head?

PS.  Where do you live so I can tell.. er... santa clause which chimney to go down

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

haah lol, well the sump is staying as is, as i had a good look at it and the whole oil pickup is full of oil and the area in the trapdoor is FULL to the brim, so how can 8 or so litres of oil all run away from the pickup when the sump doesnt even have much more capacity, and the baffles stop it goin to the rear of the sump mostly, but i reckon if the whole back of the sump was full it still would have alot of oil around the pickup. 8L in a like 10L area cant leave much room. also cant extend it on the drivers side because of the front diff and i'd never be able to remove the diff internals. only option is to go lower, but its flush with the x-member so i dont want it any lower.

personally i cant see the stagea being a track racer or anything, maybe a practice track day once or twice, but thats all, mainly street use, and also occasional drags to see what its capable of with the 1800kg body weight B)

squish area i am leaving as is, and only time will tell wether its the right decision or not

assembled my head totally yesterday and find out the head shop stuffed up the shim thickness and ordered custom made 4.9mm thick shims, and we only need 3.17 shims MAX or close to that, so i dont have a bloody clue where this moron worked out 4.9mm which is HUGE, stock shims are 2.7-3.02 or something. one major stuff up, and also stripped the cam stud bolts in the head, and found out the head guy had already stripped 3 of em and helicoiled em, and so we fixed the other few and now its fine. just waiting till tuesday to sort these shims out. none of the valves will even close they are sooo huge.

now i now y i dont let shops touch my stuff, cause they are slack and dont give a shit. i took it to a large large PERFORMANCE shop in perth and they contracted the work to some other little backyard head shop with a dodgy sounding name, which i pay good money and get some joe blow ending up with it, who cant work out a shim thickness

the more i deal with local businesses the more i am disgusted people can reccomend these places, total lack of care and rediculious time frames for a simple port job of over 14 weeks.

more waiting now for shops to re-open and to get some more shims.

rant over/

Brad