What Should I Do To My Gtr

[hrd-hr30]

well, if you can't deal with a little bit of squirming from the back of the car in 2nd gear corners, maybe you should consider something along the lines of lawn bowls to pass your time.

I'll take that over plough understeer on entry everytime! no way in hell that's going to help your laptimes!

btw, you should have been goign the other way with your pressures.

[t01-100]

The important thing is to have a go & have some fun.  By the by, I don't have sump baffles & with cornering gees reaching into the 1.3 + range I have never had oil surge problems.  Just overfill the sump by about a litre.  Obviates the need for such an expensive modification for cars that only occassionally hit the track.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

If you look at the sump design you will see that the threat of starvation is only too real in even hard road driving. I personally wouldn't do more than a few soft laps in an un-baffled GTR - a $10k engine rebuild is too stiffer pill for me to swollow!

Maybe just factor it in the next time you change the clutch, thats what I did. My sponsor BMS only charge $380 for the flash Tomei sump baffle.

[djr81]

well, if you can't deal with a little bit of squirming from the back of the car in 2nd gear corners, maybe you should consider something along the lines of lawn bowls to pass your time. 

I'll take that over plough understeer on entry everytime! no way in hell that's going to help your laptimes!

btw, you should have been goign the other way with your pressures.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

The point is simple: With the HICAS removed the car understeered more on turn in. Which means the rear wheels were working in opposite phase...

Actually second gear corners is not where the problem lays. It is in third gear corners. If you think putting up with a bad handling car is a sign of having large bollocks then good luck to you. Personally I would rather fix the set up & get better lap times. Half the fun of owning a GT-R is improving the car & getting better lap times out of it.

I never said I was happy with the present amount of understeer mid corner. For the record since the SES at Wanneroo I have changed the springs & dampers & adjusted the roll bars to fix the problem. What it does show is that the handling of a car will vary immensely from circuit to circuit & even from day to day. The week previous the set up was fine (At another track) with no hint of the plough understeer that showed itself in the first set of laps at Wanneroo. I had to adjust the car - consequently the next set of three laps contained by best time for the day.

As for tyre pressure - as long as you are in the right ballpark less pressure gives a larger slip angle, all other thing being equal.

[Beer Baron]

yep, my tomei baffles are going in when the clutch comes out

[hrd-hr30]

not a problem in 2nd gear corners? make up your mind. It hard having a sensible dicussion about something when one minute your complaining about the "plethora of second gear corners (My local circuit at Collie has two, the short course at Wanneroo has one, hillclimb courses usually have a couple) & slower speed third gear corners..." But I guess since your car handles differently everyday, it must be hard to figure out where the bloody problem is

next you'll be telling us leaning in your seat helps you go around corners...

[t01-100]

Beer Baron - The only problem is the Tomei one look to cool to hide away!

[djr81]

not a problem in 2nd gear corners? make up your mind. It hard having a sensible dicussion about something when one minute your complaining about the "plethora of second gear corners (My local circuit at Collie has two, the short course at Wanneroo has one, hillclimb courses usually have a couple) & slower speed third gear corners..." But I guess since your car handles differently everyday, it must be hard to figure out where the bloody problem is 

next you'll be telling us leaning in your seat helps you go around corners...

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Never said there was a problem in second gear corners. HICAS effect is more pronounced, but then again so is low speed understeer. The problem is more so on turn in to third gear corners - which is what I was talking about. I never did complain about 2nd gear corners - you said:

There wouldn't be too many corners on Australian racetracks where entry speed would be below about 80-90kph for any reasonably setup GTR on race rubber. You'd pretty much need hillclimbs for lower speed corners, and MtCotton is about as tight as they come.

I was simply pointing out that my local track had a couple. Not complaining, just pointing out the fact that they do exist - inded that they are not uncommon.

You are right - chasing set up is a pain in the arse. It is one of the reasons why cars that are good at one circuit may be rubbish at the next. It is also a good reason for having adjustable anti roll bars & for taking a tyre pressure gauge & a pump with you to the track. A higher grip circuit will often result in different handling characterisitcs to a lower grip one. That is why people soften their set ups when it is raining, or have to make adjustments between the morning and afternoon sessions. On a GT-R most people install more rear anti roll when the grip levels are higher.

Leaning in my seat doesn't help me go around corners - it was simply a reaction to the EVO in front of me having a massive tank slapper on the marbles/dirt because he was looking in his mirror instead of where he was going. Actually not fitting properly in my seat doesn't help much either - I only just fit in the car as it is.

[Beer Baron]

Beer Baron - The only problem is the Tomei one look to cool to hide away!

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

yeah they are a nice little piece. though mine have been just sitting in the box for months it will be good to put them to use!

djr81. i have a question. How do you mount the camera?

[hrd-hr30]

Never said there was a problem in second gear corners.  HICAS effect is more pronounced, but then again so is low speed understeer.  The problem is more so on turn in to third gear corners - which is what I was talking about.  I never did complain about 2nd gear corners - you said:

There wouldn't be too many corners on Australian racetracks where entry speed would be below about 80-90kph for any reasonably setup GTR on race rubber. You'd pretty much need hillclimbs for lower speed corners, and MtCotton is about as tight as they come.

I was simply pointing out that my local track had a couple.  Not complaining, just pointing out the fact that they do exist - inded that they are not uncommon.

You are right - chasing set up is a pain in the arse.  It is one of the reasons why cars that are good at one circuit may be rubbish at the next.  It is also a good reason for having adjustable anti roll bars & for taking a tyre pressure gauge & a pump with you to the track.  A higher grip circuit will often result in different handling characterisitcs to a lower grip one.  That is why people soften their set ups when it is raining, or have to make adjustments between the morning and afternoon sessions.  On a GT-R most people install more rear anti roll when the grip levels are higher.

Leaning in my seat doesn't help me go around corners - it was simply a reaction to the EVO in front of me having a massive tank slapper on the marbles/dirt because he was looking in his mirror instead of where he was going.  Actually not fitting properly in my seat doesn't help much either - I only just fit in the car as it is.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

key comment being "reasonably setup GTR on race rubber" - not a terminally understeering GTR that compromises corner entry speeds so drastically.

In my years of racing supersprints and hillclimbs, I've never had a car be good at one circuit and rubbish at the next. I disagree about the handling characteristics changing on surfaces with different grip levels. its just that the threshold of grip is lower, and any handling characterisics present in the car are exasperbated. ie, it will be easier to exceed the grip of the fronts on turn-in, it will be easier to exceed the grip of the rears powering out of the exit. the surface doesn't actually change the balance of the car. It may make it feel like the car is behaving differently to an inexperienced driver (especially if he doesn't really challenge the limits of the car in the dry on grippy surfaces/days), because the car is doing different things, but that's a perception rather than reality.

Yes soft setups work better in wet or lower grip conditions, and on slower circuits. Partly because it dulls the response of the chassis and partly because more weight trasfer can help in particular areas like traction out of corners in the wet. But even this is a bit misleading because you are really just compensating for the lost weight transfer that you get in those conditions due to the lower speeds and G forces. But even at State Champ level, there aren't too many teams that make setup changes from one track to another.

Edited December 19, 2005 by hrd-hr30

[djr81]

key comment being "reasonably setup GTR on race rubber" - not a terminally understeering GTR that compromises corner entry speeds so drastically.

In my years of racing supersprints and hillclimbs, I've never had a car be good at one circuit and rubbish at the next. I disagree about the handling characteristics changing on surfaces with different grip levels. its just that the threshold of grip is lower, and any handling characterisics present in the car are exasperbated. ie, it will be easier to exceed the grip of the fronts on turn-in, it will be easier to exceed the grip of the rears powering out of the exit. the surface doesn't actually change the balance of the car. It may make it feel like the car is behaving differently to an inexperienced driver (especially if he doesn't really challenge the limits of the car in the dry on grippy surfaces/days), because the car is doing different things, but that's a perception rather than reality.

Yes soft setups work better in wet or lower grip conditions, and on slower circuits. Partly because it dulls the response of the chassis and partly because more weight trasfer can help in particular areas like traction out of corners in the wet. But even this is a bit misleading because you are really just compensating for the lost weight transfer that you get in those conditions due to the lower speeds and G forces. But even at State Champ level, there aren't too many teams that make setup changes from one track to another.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

You are missing the point - a small change in cornering speed results in a large change in laterals gees. For example you need 5% more grip to take a corner at 82km/h as opposed to 80km/h. A 5% difference is very easilly felt. So even a terminally understeering (Even for the three laps on that run until I dialled it out) can get through the corners reasonably quickly.

As for different circuits requiring different suspension set ups - you will find it is mostly down to time, money and understanding that these things are not changed. The parameters for car set up are so multifarious that it can make it very difficult to have a gun set up for every track.

Different grip levels can fundamemtally change a cars handling characteristics. For one the suspension geometry will take on more acute angles, any non linear sprints/dampers/bushes/roll bars will behave differently, tyre loads will have their effect & loads will be transferred & apportioned differently between the two ends of the car. For example at lower grip levels you may need a larger roll couple differential front to rear than at larger grip levels. So, in short, different grip levels can markedly alter a cars handling, not merely exaggerate its traits.

Maybe I am the one that is exasperated (I think you meant exacerbated) because I get tired of people resorting to personal abuse (Inexperienced, should take up lawn bowls etc etc) when they run out of logical arguments. I thought the idea of the forum was to discuss things and try to add to peoples collective knowledge, not invent conspiracy theories when others disagree.

As for the camera I put another child restraint anchorage point in the parcel shelf & then made up a bracket to bolt the camera to. The bracket is to lift the camera above the rear seat cushion. You also need a spacer to make up the gap between the parcel shelf (The wood one) & the lower steel shelf. I can post a couple photos later if it would help.

[Beer Baron]

yeah a couple of pics would be excellent.

cheers.

[djr81]

yeah a couple of pics would be excellent.

cheers.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I found a photo of the bracket. You also need a bit of threaded rod to screw into the underside of your camera. I also place some rubber between the camera and the bracket to soak up a bit of vibration. The bolt in the bottom threads into a nut that I welded to the washer in the child restraint kit which in turn is rivetted to the steel parcel shelf. This stops everything falling apart when you want to take the bracket out.

Give us a yell if that doesn't make sufficient sense.

[Beer Baron]

that looks good. I can probably make one out of some sheet metal we have lying around and just pinch the camera holding bolt out of a cheap tripod i have at home. thanks.

[hrd-hr30]

Different grip levels can fundamemtally change a cars handling characteristics. For one the suspension geometry will take on more acute angles, any non linear sprints/dampers/bushes/roll bars will behave differently, tyre loads will have their effect & loads will be transferred & apportioned differently between the two ends of the car.  For example at lower grip levels you may need a larger roll couple differential front to rear than at larger grip levels. So, in short, different grip levels can markedly alter a cars handling, not merely exaggerate its traits.

Maybe I am the one that is exasperated (I think you meant exacerbated) because I get tired of people resorting to personal abuse (Inexperienced, should take up lawn bowls etc etc) when they run out of logical arguments.  I thought the idea of the forum was to discuss things and try to add to peoples collective knowledge, not invent conspiracy theories when others disagree.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

FFS, the lawn bowls comment was clearly a joke, and I never said you were an inexperienced driver. but really, there are not many drivers at club level who can actually drive their cars 10/10ths. And even fewer who understand what is going on with their car at the limit! And fewer again who would know how to improve the car.

conspiracy theory? sorry, you lost me...

It seems to me that you're the one who doesn't like being disagreed with. I'm over this thread - I got little to no sensible discussion about HICAS, after asking if anyone had any tech info on the system, all that came up was one or two photos, and I really don't care about your thoughts on handling and car setup enough to continue reading or discussing it with you.

You believe your car's handling is totally different wet to dry, track to track, and even day to day, and no-one is going to convince you otherwise. That's fine, continue believing that. i really don't care - its just another car/driver on the track I'll never have to worry about.

so enjoy your motorsport, and i hope next time you take the car out, its handling hasn't changed too much

Edited December 19, 2005 by hrd-hr30

[djr81]

that looks good. I can probably make one out of some sheet metal we have lying around and just pinch the camera holding bolt out of a cheap tripod i have at home. thanks.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Richard,

Just be careful drilling holes in the parcel shelf. There are approximately a bazillion wires under there for god alone knows what purpose. Best to remove it before getting too carried away with the drill. Also stick your head in the boot to find location. Mine is infront of the ATTESSA module.

Also, mine was made to 50mm in height. I would suggest making it a little taller to clear the seat back properly. You bring it forward to stop it fouling with the rear screen.

Cheers

Richard

[djr81]

FFS, the lawn bowls comment was clearly a joke, and I never said you were an inexperienced driver. but really, there are not many drivers at club level who can actually drive their cars 10/10ths. And even fewer who understand what is going on with their car at the limit! And fewer again who would know how to improve the car.

conspiracy theory? sorry, you lost me...

It seems to me that you're the one who doesn't like being disagreed with. I'm over this thread - I got little to no sensible discussion about HICAS, after asking if anyone had any tech info on the system, all that came up was one or two photos, and I really don't care about your thoughts on handling and car setup enough to continue reading or discussing it with you.

You believe your car's handling is totally different wet to dry, track to track, and even day to day, and no-one is going to convince you otherwise. That's fine, continue believing that. i really don't care - its just another car/driver on the track I'll never have to worry about.

so enjoy your motorsport, and i hope next time you take the car out, its handling hasn't changed too much 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

No there aren't too many people at club level who push their cars 10/10ths. Doesn't mean you should dismiss everyones opinions, however.

You got some good input about HICAS but chose to disagree with all of it. For the record, the conspiracy theory bit related to your posts whereby you assumed that all the motoring journalists all failed to understand how the HICAS system worked. So you assumed they all got it wrong & that all the posted documents were wrong aswell.

As an aside, one of the fundamental difficulties with most engineering subjects (be it car set up or whatever) is that it takes a great deal of effort to publish results and that those results are applicable to a very narrow field. To such an extent that it is rarely done.

So take your bat & going home. Fair enough. Don't let the door hit you on the arse on the way out. (A joke, by the way)

[Beer Baron]

yeah, i would look a bit silly drilling straight through the attessa computer.. lol i'm sure it's been done.

yep i think maybe another 5 or 10mm hight and possibly a little bit further forward would be good just to make sure the camera i have wont touch the screen.

[hrd-hr30]

No there aren't too many people at club level who push their cars 10/10ths. Doesn't mean you should dismiss everyones opinions, however.

that's not why i dismissed your opinions.

You got some good input about HICAS but chose to disagree with all of it.

I got alot of "this is what I think HICAS does", this is what I feel HICAS doing on the racetrack", and 2 pictures as the only technical evidence - one of which clearly shows that HICAS does not always counter-steer on turn in as everyone always says it does.

For the record, the conspiracy theory bit related to your posts whereby you assumed that all the motoring journalists all failed to understand how the HICAS system worked. So you assumed they all got it wrong & that all the posted documents were wrong aswell.

Considering that the journos (or the Aust media rep, before explaining it to the journos) probably got it from Japanese engineers, I think there is a high chance that the explanation was misunderstood/misinterpreted. hardly a conspiracy theory.

So take your bat & going home. Fair enough. Don't let the door hit you on the arse on the way out. (A joke, by the way) 

jokes are supposed to show some sort of humour - ie to be amusing... I suppose the meaning of this comment of your changes like your car's handling, because today it doesn't seem intended to get a laugh...

[DOO00K]

Anyway, I'm about to get my hands on a R32 GTR and also plan to take it to the track for track days but not for any competative use, similar to the original post.

I thought I would post up a stack of questions but the search functions have answered about 90% of all my questions so far.

The R32 I'm about to get already has:

Metal turbine blades instead of ceramic

Nismo exhaust from the turbos

Nismo fuel pressure regulator

Nismo grounding kit

Adjustable dampers

Twin plate clutch

4 core aluminium radiator.

The following things are the parts I want to install not just for performance but for reliability also:

Torque Split Controller

Boxed-in Ram Pod

Aftermarket ECU

Front & rear sway bars

Oil cooler

Baffled sump kit

HICAS lock kit

Camber pins

Master cylinder brake bracket

Braided brake lines

Either DBA 5000's and track pads or

CSC Caliper kit.

Some questions:

Do I need to consider a better fuel pump or is the standard one good enough?

Is 16psi OK to run with this setup?

Do you need to drop the gearbox to fit the baffled sump kit or is it actually easier than that?

Are there benefits or pitfalls in replacing the engine driven radiator to a thermo electric fan?

Any of these things a waste of time?

Anything that I should consider that I haven't listed?

My opinions on the discussion so far:

I would go for locking the HICAS just to stop any of the unpredictability that so many experience. Didn't the Winfield Skylines lock theres?

Being involved in other car clubs, I found the guys that run at 10/10ths going for sheep stations always had very different suspension set-ups for each track. In NSW Oran Park, Eastern Creek and Wakefield are such different tracks which resulted with different bump and rebound rates, different ride heights, different sway bar settings, and particularly different alignment settings. When the difference between 1st and 3rd was less than half a second in each category suspension was vital. Particularly in the completely standard class where alignment settings were the only thing you could change apart from the compulsory safety modifications.

It's possible to generally set up a car to be good allround at any circuit but it won't be it's absolute best. Tracks change because there are so many variables. The last time it rained, how much rubber on the track, whether it's hot, cold, barometric pressure, etc. Depends what your chasing. To be the best or competing just for fun?

[djr81]

Some questions:

Do I need to consider a better fuel pump or is the standard one good enough?

Stadard one is ok if your AFR's are ok on the dyno. Just turn up with a full tank.

Is 16psi OK to run with this setup?

Maybe, see previous answer.

Do you need to drop the gearbox to fit the baffled sump kit or is it actually easier than that?

Not 100% sure, but I believe it is harder than that. Remember you have a drive shaft running through your sump & a subframe holding the whole shebang up.

Are there benefits or pitfalls in replacing the engine driven radiator to a thermo electric fan?

Slight gain in power, not worth messing around with.

Anything that I should consider that I haven't listed?

Worry about temperatures of everything - but mostly your engine & your brakes.